Are Electronic keypad locks on Gun safes more secure than...

by **Szii** » 20 Sep 2004 17:17

Romstar wrote:Anyone who has ever heard of a SQUID will know what you can do with the right tools. Now, the average squid requires a lot of room and power, but there are much smaller versions in use by several agencies and private companies.

Interesting that you could pick up the state via the electron charges changing the magnetic bias of certain areas. I wouldn't have thought of it.

To use it, though, you'd need to:
1) Read the codes (at a distance?) as the correct sequence was dialed
or
2) Emit similar biasing to set the codes yourself, possibly clearing out the lockouts. Rapid auto-dialer style.

#2 is beyond me unless you find a way, as you alluded, to defeating the TEMPEST shielding. A tuned microwave signal, perhaps, or a broadband EM transmission to simply scramble the lock-state.

Cool stuff - very nice.

-Szii

by **hzatorsk** » 20 Sep 2004 18:52

While all of this high powered electronic scrambling/listening/tempest stuff is interesting to mull around, take it from someone (me) who is Tempest trained and has tried to measure the RF output from this lock (X-07), has sent 1.5 Kw of RF across the radio spectrum through it and watched carefully on a rather sensitive 50mhz digital scope for any possible pattern that this lock makes while in use. ...to no avail.

I also saw the factory video where this lock was put through the paces of high voltage arc tests and survived without frying.

Yes... you could probably scramble electronics with RFI, Magnetic Pulses, photon torpedos, etc... assuming you can get it directed into the lock from outside the container. Quite frankly, I was unable to confuse it. Personally, I think you'll be unable to as well.

If you did manage to scramble this lock and fry it's cute little brains... I believe you'll find it to fail in the locked position. I don't know this... as I was unable to confuse it. (I was able to blow up the the display circuit!!)

If you find otherwise, and can open the lock (and can repeat it)... let me know, I want to fly out to your site and witness myself first hand. I'll presume, the lock is mounted on a commercial container for your test.

For now, (although not wanting to be discouraging to creative process), I am content that you'll drill this lock (or observe it being opened) to get into the box it protects.

Now... If you want to apply some X-Ray techniques to the chips and some reverse engineering the circuitry and hope to discover an internal flaw or manufacturer backdoor... or Perhaps inject some signals into the circuit board or jumper a few traces: Yes... you'll get it open quite easily. But, you won't reproduce it on a lock you haven't gotten access to through the container. If you've gotten this far, why didn't you just drill for the bolt itself?

Harold

by **thertel** » 20 Sep 2004 19:11

The more I read about safes the more I get curious about learning how to get into them......I can already see how the girlfriend would react, though, if she came over and saw safes all over the room. She freaked about hte locks. And the only excuse I can come up with is "Its to they wont know which one to open."

Thomas

by **Chucklz** » 20 Sep 2004 21:22

It sound silly, but to me trying to bust open an X-09 is kind of like dissecting a Rose. Sure you will learn a great deal about how a rose groes, or how certain flowers in general grow. But, when you are done, the rose is a bit less mysterious, and perhaps a bit less beautiful. Maby I just dont want to know too much about this lock, or maby I just spend too much time in the lab.

by **WhiteHat** » 20 Sep 2004 21:37

wow - that's the first time I've heard a locking mechanism compared to a rose!

"a combo-lock by any other name would smell as sweet!" doesn't quite have the same ring to it...

to aid those who are confused about what a SQUID is:"Superconducting Quantum Interference Device"

"a SQUID can detect a change of energy as much as 100 billion times weaker than the electromagnetic energy that moves a compass needle."

from: http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition ... 22,00.html

by **Scatman** » 21 Sep 2004 0:24

This may sound nieve, but would it be possible to apply a voltage to the wires running into the save from behind the keypad unit in an effort to use the motor(s) to retract the bolt?

by **hzatorsk** » 21 Sep 2004 6:33

Scatman,

No. Voltage down keypad circuits usually just damage keypad encoder chips.

by **Scatman** » 21 Sep 2004 11:07

I saw one that when the keypad assembly was removed to replace the batteries there were just a couple of wires running into the safe.
This gave me the idea that all that the keypad did was apply a voltage to retract the bolts once a proper code was input.
Are there other electronics inside of the safe?
I do not claim to be an expert in this category, but rather see this as a logical progression to encouner how a system such as the aforementioned functions.

by **Chucklz** » 21 Sep 2004 12:15

Its a nice thought, but I doubt even Sentry does it in that manner. The keypad just allows you to "submit" your code to the electronics located in the container door. So applying voltage to that specific set of wires wont help things at all.

by **hzatorsk** » 21 Sep 2004 13:07

Scatman,

I do not know of ANY keypad/lock where the bolt retracting decision is made outside of the container.

Also, since we really don't know what model of safe you have or are referring to. So we can't tell you how the electronics are laid out. If your question is theoritical, then "Yes"... there is a rare possibility such a keypad/lock exists and can be opened in such a way as you describe.

Very likely however, "No"... such a concept would be a huge weakness in the design of the lock/safe. And, the possibility of a lockout exists by attempting such a trick on a lock you are not intimately familiar with.

Safe techs do not experiment on locks/safes they are not very sure of. Virtually every 'bypass' technique has risks that can turn a relatively simple procedure into a huge, expensive, nightmare.

by **Varjeal** » 21 Sep 2004 15:08

hzatorsk: I'm sure UL(C) and all its affiliates have had numerous types of "safes" show up at their testing facilities that have had electrical components that could be manipulated from outside the box. ALL of them end up in the dumpster out back, and for good reason.

by **hzatorsk** » 21 Sep 2004 18:54

No argument with that logic Varjeal, it's those entry level consumer non-UL listed boxes that seem to attract the bypass attention.

Nobody seems to want to send current down the wires of a big Brown UltraGem with a digital lock on it. ...I wonder why?

Are Electronic keypad locks on Gun safes more secure than...

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