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Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinning

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinning

Postby crosstalk » 20 Jul 2011 8:16

Hello. Can anyone identify this deadbolt? It is a double cylinder (inside shown in the photo) and the only maker's mark is "Ilco" on the outside cylinder (schlage sc1 keyway). There is a slot on the right but I can't figure out if this will somehow release the cylinders for repinning. Otherwise I am assuming that I need to remove it from the door to remove the cylinders. Also there are two one-way screws in this thing. I removed one of the standard screws to match the one-ways after I drill them out (any real need for one-way screws here?) Thanks for any help.
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby crosstalk » 20 Jul 2011 8:22

Apparently I can't upload photos here. Here it is:

Image
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby Squelchtone » 20 Jul 2011 8:37

Hi welcome to the forum,

The slot on the right is for a little piece that normally sticks out a metal spring loaded tab, it is there so that if someone on the outside of the door were to rip the rim cylinder from the door, the spring loaded metal shutter would slide in place blocking the attacker from being able to insert a screwdriver to retract the deadbolt mechanism. Yours may be removed, or cut down so it doesn't stick out.

The one way security screws are a good idea because IF there is a glass window on that door, one could break the glass and unscrew the lock from the door, thus bypassing any need to pick the lock.

ILCO is the Independent Lock Company, they've been around for a long time and make quality products. Segal originally made that style jimmy-proof lock, and recently the new owners of Segal have started making them again, even fancy solid brass models that sell for $60 at places like Home Depot.

You can get cheaper made ones that look the same from companies like Franklin, but I personally wouldn't trust them on my door. edit: Although apparently from what I'm seeing in the link below, Franklin (Prime Line) now has a solid brass model, which looks a lot better than their older stuff.

Here's some stuff on ebay: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_ ... oof+double

Rekeying may be more expensive than buying a new one, unless you have your own rekeying supplies or a have a friendly locksmith.

Home Depot's selection: The white Defender brand is actually very well made: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... ogId=10053

Good luck with your project,
Squelchtone
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby crosstalk » 20 Jul 2011 8:56

Thanks for the reply and links. Yes, there is a window in the door just above that lock. I have the rekeying supplies, so if I end up replacing it then I will rekey the new one anyway.

If I want to reuse the one-way screws, can you offer any advice or inexpensive tools for removing them? My initial thought was that I would have to use a drill and screw extractor. I saw some "sheet metal" labelled one-ways at a local hardware store but I don't know if the thread matches if I want to replace them. Might be better to get a different type of security screw but might not be worth the cost if I can't find them locally (only need two screws).
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby deception » 20 Jul 2011 9:00

You can use a screw punch to unscrew the one way screws enough until you can remove them by hand or vise grips.
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby Evan » 20 Jul 2011 12:39

crosstalk wrote:Thanks for the reply and links. Yes, there is a window in the door just above that lock. I have the rekeying supplies, so if I end up replacing it then I will rekey the new one anyway.

If I want to reuse the one-way screws, can you offer any advice or inexpensive tools for removing them? My initial thought was that I would have to use a drill and screw extractor. I saw some "sheet metal" labelled one-ways at a local hardware store but I don't know if the thread matches if I want to replace them. Might be better to get a different type of security screw but might not be worth the cost if I can't find them locally (only need two screws).


@crosstalk:

You generally can not reuse the one-way security screws once you remove them as they become damaged during the removal process even with the proper tool that apparently the other posters who replied so far aren't aware of...

A real hardware store often has one-way screws in one of the many bolt trays on the nut and bolt aisle...

I think you will be surprised to see that those screws are actually sheet metal screws and are not true wood screws with the solid shank just beneath the screw head...

There aren't many "security" screws that are available locally anymore that someone can not defeat with a $20 bit kit that comes with a multi-function driver... I have two recommendations for suppliers for "more secure than average fasteners" and "security fasteners" if you are interested:

<< External Link to Tanner Fasteners and Industrial Supplies Security Fasteners web page >> <-- "more secure than average"

<< External Link to Bryce Fastener High Security/Tamper Proof Screws web page >> <-- actual security fasteners

Good luck with your project...

~~ Evan
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby crosstalk » 20 Jul 2011 12:49

Thanks. I have seen the one-way removal tools online with mixed reviews so probably easiest just to drill it and replace it with a new one. I have one of those cheap security bit sets and they come in handy. But since they don't have a one-way tool in there, the one-way seems to offer reasonable security at a cheap price. Not sure why I'm obsessing over the screws anyway, since somebody could pick/bump this thing in a second.
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby Evan » 20 Jul 2011 13:04

squelchtone wrote:Hi welcome to the forum,

The slot on the right is for a little piece that normally sticks out a metal spring loaded tab, it is there so that if someone on the outside of the door were to rip the rim cylinder from the door, the spring loaded metal shutter would slide in place blocking the attacker from being able to insert a screwdriver to retract the deadbolt mechanism. Yours may be removed, or cut down so it doesn't stick out.

The one way security screws are a good idea because IF there is a glass window on that door, one could break the glass and unscrew the lock from the door, thus bypassing any need to pick the lock.

ILCO is the Independent Lock Company, they've been around for a long time and make quality products. Segal originally made that style jimmy-proof lock, and recently the new owners of Segal have started making them again, even fancy solid brass models that sell for $60 at places like Home Depot.

You can get cheaper made ones that look the same from companies like Franklin, but I personally wouldn't trust them on my door. edit: Although apparently from what I'm seeing in the link below, Franklin (Prime Line) now has a solid brass model, which looks a lot better than their older stuff.

Rekeying may be more expensive than buying a new one, unless you have your own rekeying supplies or a have a friendly locksmith.


Most people don't have any idea what that little tab of metal sticking out on the butt end of the jimmy proof lock is for -- you are entirely correct in describing it as an indicator to alert the owner/user of the lock to possible tampering... However, if you could remove the rim cylinder from the outside of the door then the little "shutter" isn't all that much more difficult to deal with...

I don't like seeing these sort of locks installed with one-way screws... It complicates the replacement of the exterior rim cylinder by the homeowner so the lock will often go longer between being re-keyed than if it had standard screws and was therefore more accessible...

If the window in the door is in the homeowner's opinion that vulnerable to being a path to entry then they should obtain a security film to apply to the interior surface of the glass to frustrate the exploitation of that entry method... Applying a sheet of clear polycarbonate over the entire "lite" area on the interior surface of the door is another good way to secure doors with a large glass lite that could be used to unlock single cylinder deadbolts...

I think that the OP will be quite surprised when he goes to re-key the inner cylinder on that jimmy proof, as most of them are only 3 pins on the interior side, being the pin chambers on the key closest to the bow... There are additional options to re-keying the existing rim cylinder -- Home Depot stocks "Segal" replacement rim cylinders at a reasonable price and if the OP desired to go to a locksmith he could obtain an Ilco rim cylinder which has been upgraded with the Ilco Bump Halt protection...

I should just mention my standard dislike of installing double cylinder locks on egress doors in residential occupancies... The small additional amount of personal safety you feel at having one installed on your door comes with a wicked large actual risk of death or serious injury in real life situations that are actually likely to happen in your home (and aren't fantastical unlikely worst case scenarios)...

Some of these risks are:

-- Entrapment in a fire because of being overcome by smoke and not being able to get the small key into the tiny keyhole in the dark while you are huddling as close to the floor as you can while coughing badly... (*The standard canned response to this fact that advocates of installing double cylinder locks on residential doors is to leave the key in or near the lock which defeats the entire purpose of installing such a lock to begin with)

-- Coming home and walking in on a burglary in progress where you lock the door behind you when you come in... (You could be locking yourself inside with a burglar who could act very unpredictably if they end up positioned between you and the locked door that they would need your key to unlock and use to escape)

~~ Evan
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby Evan » 20 Jul 2011 13:06

crosstalk wrote:Thanks. I have seen the one-way removal tools online with mixed reviews so probably easiest just to drill it and replace it with a new one. I have one of those cheap security bit sets and they come in handy. But since they don't have a one-way tool in there, the one-way seems to offer reasonable security at a cheap price. Not sure why I'm obsessing over the screws anyway, since somebody could pick/bump this thing in a second.


@crosstalk:

Drill to remove the head of the screw only, then use a pair of pliers to remove the shank of the screw after you get the lock case off the door...

*MUCH* easier to accomplish...

~~ Evan
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby crosstalk » 1 Aug 2011 13:09

Thanks for all the comments. I tried to drill the one-way screws but it was surprising difficult to drill in the center because of the scalloped shape of the thing (kept breaking small bits). Anyway, the center punch method worked just fine--just bang it on the edge until it backs out enough to grab it.

Also, the exterior cylinder had 5 pins and the interior cylinder had 4 pins. One problem with rekeying was that my plug follower snagged one of the driver pin springs on the exterior cylinder. Not too sure what happened there. Anyway, any chain hardware stores have this small spring? I'm inclined just to leave out one spring if I can't replace it easily.
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby Evan » 2 Aug 2011 13:37

crosstalk wrote:Thanks for all the comments. I tried to drill the one-way screws but it was surprising difficult to drill in the center because of the scalloped shape of the thing (kept breaking small bits). Anyway, the center punch method worked just fine--just bang it on the edge until it backs out enough to grab it.

Also, the exterior cylinder had 5 pins and the interior cylinder had 4 pins. One problem with rekeying was that my plug follower snagged one of the driver pin springs on the exterior cylinder. Not too sure what happened there. Anyway, any chain hardware stores have this small spring? I'm inclined just to leave out one spring if I can't replace it easily.


@crosstalk:

Leaving the spring out is one of the worst things you can do, it will cause the key to bind as you insert and remove it from the lock...

Disassemble the cylinder and invert that damaged spring so that the good end of it currently protected in the shell of the lock is facing down towards the pin stack...

You must not have had a top pin in the chamber where you snagged the spring...

~~ Evan
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby crosstalk » 2 Aug 2011 13:43

Thanks for the pointer about leaving out a spring. I will try to rescue the broken spring, but what about leaving out the driver pin and spring near the tip of the key?
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby Evan » 2 Aug 2011 21:11

crosstalk wrote:Thanks for the pointer about leaving out a spring. I will try to rescue the broken spring, but what about leaving out the driver pin and spring near the tip of the key?


@crosstalk:

That would mean that more keys would operate your lock than you intend to...

The lock would open for a key with the same 4 cuts in the positions as the pins you put in the chambers of the lock and ANY cut in the last position if you leave that chamber empty...

~~ Evan
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Re: Identify deadbolt and how to remove cylinder for repinni

Postby crosstalk » 2 Aug 2011 21:44

Makes sense. I rescued 3/4 of the spring, so it should be ok. When I went to put it all back together I figured out what went wrong in the first place. A protrusion at the end of the cylinder plug for the tailpiece left a gap between the cylinder and my plug follower. The gap wasn't too big except in one radial position of the cylinder where there is a recess. So I guess I wasn't paying attention to that and a pin popped out and I rolled over the spring with the plug follower.
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