Arrow Pointe SFIC Cores: Just as vulnerable as BEST?

[cdub]

So I just picked up some Arrow Pointe SFIC cores, and of course the first thing I did was take one apart!

I was under the impression that the newer Arrow cores (Pointe being the current line) were not susceptible to the control shear picking technique discussed at http://www.crypto.com/photos/misc/sfic/

But looking at the Arrow core, the control sleeve looks essentially the same as the BEST sleeve (i.e. it goes all the way around the plug, allowing one to use the special tension wrench to pick to the control shear).







Am I missing something? Are Arrow Pointe cores no different than BEST's in this regard? Or did I wind up getting older generation Arrow cores?

Thanks,

cdub

[femurat]

BEST locks are well made, with tight tolerances. I don't know about specific differences between best and arrow, but I'm going to offer you my 2 cents anyway.

I've picked some best, both to the control and operating position, with a standard tension wrench. The position I got it open was just a matter of luck: I was not able to CHOOSE to pick it to operating or control. It opens where it wants if you use a standard tension wrench. If you use a specific tension wrench, it's easier to pick it and the lock will be opened to the control position.
This doesn't make it "vulnerable". The fact that you have a specific tension wrench doesn't open the lock. You have to pick it! And it's more difficult than average locks. So considering these locks vulnerable just because there are specific tools it's wrong.

As stated before, these are just my 2 cents

[Evan]

So I just picked up some Arrow Pointe SFIC cores, and of course the first thing I did was take one apart!

I was under the impression that the newer Arrow cores (Pointe being the current line) were not susceptible to the control shear picking technique discussed at http://www.crypto.com/photos/misc/sfic/

But looking at the Arrow core, the control sleeve looks essentially the same as the BEST sleeve (i.e. it goes all the way around the plug, allowing one to use the special tension wrench to pick to the control shear).

Am I missing something? Are Arrow Pointe cores no different than BEST's in this regard? Or did I wind up getting older generation Arrow cores?

Thanks,

cdub

@cdub:

What gave you the impression that Arrow SFIC's were not vulnerable to control shear line picking attempts ?

All SFIC's are designed the same way and consist of the same four component pieces when disassembled before being pinned up...

The major difference that used to tell BEST cores apart from others was that BEST cores had individually capped pin chambers called "barrels" as opposed to cores which are capped with one single piece of metal over all the chambers... Since just about everyone making SFIC's now makes both types of cores it isn't something that you can use to tell them apart anymore...

A 7-pin SFIC is not something that you are just going to stick your picks into and magically open up, like you have been told when you are picking SFIC's with a normal tension wrench it can open at either shear line - the special SFIC control sleeve wrench just applies the tension to the control shear line to improve your chances of opening it to control so you can remove the core...

It is MUCH faster to remove an SFIC core from its housing using destructive techniques which leaves you in exactly the same position/situation as you would be if you had picked it if you know what you are doing to decode the core...

~~ Evan

[cdub]

@Evan

Thanks for the reply. I know that SFIC locks are incredibly difficult to pick, even with the special tool. Certainly beyond my level at this point! I'm sure you've noticed by now I'm simply fascinated by this "platform," and I'm trying to learn as much as possible.

As far as where I read that Arrow cores are not susceptible to the special "control shear" tension wrench, the website I posted in my original message, among other places, states:

(Actually, newer Arrow cores do not suffer from this weakness, as the control sleeve does not go all the way to around the plug.)

In addition, I recently bought a book published by The National Locksmith entitled "SFIC: Advanced - A Comprehensive Guide to Small Format Interchangeable Cores" by William Lynk ( see http://www.iclsglobal.com/IC-Books.html ), which states:

The IC Tension Tool will hold the core's sleeve in place so one might pick to the control shear line, and it works with most I-Cores. This was great until Arrow came up with a "saddle style" control lug that was "bottomless." This meant that it had no sleeve holes into which a tension pick could fit.

Also see these posts by ElAbogado at viewtopic.php?f=9&t=47276&p=355734&hilit=arrow+sfic#p355734 and viewtopic.php?f=8&t=46802&p=352659&hilit=arrow+sfic#p352659

The superior cores are Arrow new style and new Sargent. I am preparing a short post with photos to explain why these cores cannot be defeated by the fingered tension tools that are currently on the market.

Yes there is a fix, or modification, that eliminates the holes in the bottom of the keyway and the possibility that a torque tool could be applied to that particular cylinder. Also the Arrow SFIC and the Sargent (new type) SFIC do not allow the shell to wrap around the cylinder and reach the bottom of the lock, thus eliminating the efficacy of this special tool.

[Evan]

@Evan

Thanks for the reply. I know that SFIC locks are incredibly difficult to pick, even with the special tool. Certainly beyond my level at this point! I'm sure you've noticed by now I'm simply fascinated by this "platform," and I'm trying to learn as much as possible.

As far as where I read that Arrow cores are not susceptible to the special "control shear" tension wrench, the website I posted in my original message, among other places, states:

(Actually, newer Arrow cores do not suffer from this weakness, as the control sleeve does not go all the way to around the plug.)

In addition, I recently bought a book published by The National Locksmith entitled "SFIC: Advanced - A Comprehensive Guide to Small Format Interchangeable Cores" by William Lynk ( see http://www.iclsglobal.com/IC-Books.html ), which states:

The IC Tension Tool will hold the core's sleeve in place so one might pick to the control shear line, and it works with most I-Cores. This was great until Arrow came up with a "saddle style" control lug that was "bottomless." This meant that it had no sleeve holes into which a tension pick could fit.

@cdub:

There was for a while offered by Arrow the CHOicE product... This is the "new design" that you are referencing... However Arrow has phased that product out as it no longer appears in their catalogs -- the current SFIC product is Pointe...

The book you have read was written in 2005, Blaze did his SFIC work during the time he wrote his master key paper in 2003/2004... It is too bad that CHOicE didn't last, it had amongst its options a side bar -- a rarity in SFIC's...

Clearly the Pointe product you have recently purchased follows the traditional (vulnerable) design...

If you would like .pdfs of the CHOicE product line which include exploded parts diagrams you can e-mail me off site by clicking the "e-mail" button below my posting and I will reply with the file...

~~ Evan