difficult keyway

[south town ninja]

Thanks for the info. I am amazed that such a simple innovation as this keyway is so prohibitive. I can't seem to rake it open with any success at all. I guess it's time to learn SPP (I thought i was SPPing before, but i guess now that i think about it, I was just raking with a hook.) Maybe i should put this lock away for a while, and really get the hang of SPP on a lock that doesn't have such a screwy keyway, I say this for two reasons: one, i can't seem to identify binding pins (whereas this is easy in "easier" keyways); and two, I only seem to be able to guess which pins MAY be binding/setting, so I always end up oversetting all the pins. I know this because I end up with all of the pins jammed up at the top. what to do about this, i wonder. Thoughts?

[nite0wl]

Not knowing exactly what you are experiencing or using, I will just lay out some suggestions for things to examine. These suggestions may be remedial depending on your experience and skill level, I am simply laying out the same advice I give and apply when doing training events.

What are tools are you using? Some tool designs (particularly when it comes to handle design) can affect feedback, stiffer materials usually transmit the small clicks and vibrations that up make up 'feedback'. Tools like a short hook can also maneuver more easily in restrictive portions of a keyway (like that tight bend in the middle of the Schlage C), 'euro-profile' shafts can also help make sure you don't overset front pins when working deeper in the lock, slim or thin picks with a good smooth finish or polish can help reduce 'grinding' or friction between the keyway walls and the pick in narrow sections of the keyway.
Consider trying both 'lifting' and 'rocking' motions with your picks. Lifting involves supporting the pick entirely with your hand and moving the whole tool in line with the keyway, Rocking uses the keyway wards and the lip of the body as a fulcrum that the pick shaft pivots on to create a lever action. Both techniques are valid and are mostly a matter of personal comfort and preference but some keyway and bitting combinations respond better to one or the other technique.

Tension is extremely important as is use of the tension tool; making sure that the tool is firmly seated in the keyway and fits the keyway snugly (narrow tools that rotate around the keyway significantly before they catch and bind are usually not going to transfer the torque you are applying correctly) will provide better feedback. Your hand position on your tools and the amount of pressure you apply to them is very important in this respect as well. The common hand positions on pick tools almost always involve placing the tip of one finger in contact with the shaft of the pick, this helps both control and feedback.
When positioning your hand on a tension tool, it is usually preferred that you place the tip of your index finger as far away from the plug as your tool and hand size will allow. I prefer to make sure that my finger stays slightly arched which I find gives me better control of the pressure I am applying. Of course applying the correct amount of force to the tension tool is essential, pressing too hard will cause pins to become stuck while too little pressure will not adequately bind any pin.
Making sure that the lock is clean and that all of the parts move freely without tension is important. If the lock is brand new it may have oils, lubricants, and debris from the manufacturing process which can work against you, used locks can have built up dried lubricant and debris which will also complicate the picking process. If you have the key, applying a small amount of lubricant and working it in with the key until all of the components move smoothly can help ensure that the lock is in the best condition for picking. If you over lubricate or if the lubricant does not make the action of the mechanism sufficiently smooth, cleaning the lock with WD-40 can help flush out built up gunk and dirt (just be sure to wash off the WD-40 and dry thoroughly before applying lubrication, especially dry lubricants like graphite).

I apologize in advance if any of this is less than clear or flat out wrong, I am bashing this out between waking up and running through a snow storm to a client. If you need any clarification, just ask.

[south town ninja]

Thanks so much for the info. you are all very helpful.

[south town ninja]

So, i decided to shim the lock, tear it open and see if it had security pins (obviously, the only thing that could hold back such an awesome lock-picker as myself from such a seemingly simple task would be the interjection of some unforeseen issue, ie a spool driver). It was going well and i had it all shimmed up, except for the last two (first two?) pins. then i decided to see if i could pick it starting with two pins, working up to three, etc. I am now attempting four pins, and have established a picking order, and am well on my way to cracking this lock. thanks all!

[Robotnik]

So, i decided to shim the lock, tear it open and see if it had security pins (obviously, the only thing that could hold back such an awesome lock-picker as myself from such a seemingly simple task would be the interjection of some unforeseen issue, ie a spool driver). It was going well and i had it all shimmed up, except for the last two (first two?) pins. then i decided to see if i could pick it starting with two pins, working up to three, etc. I am now attempting four pins, and have established a picking order, and am well on my way to cracking this lock. thanks all!

Sounds like you've got a good thing going; congrats. SC1's are a good intro to manouvering in restrictive keyways, as are Yale Y1's (paracentric). If you're looking for a next step after making Schlages your pet, Yale's a good way to go; on those I personally use some combo of slim short hook, slim half diamond or slim DeForest diamond depending on pinning.

[nite0wl]

Congratulations ninja! Sounds like you inadvertently made yourself an impromptu progressive cylinder there. Just remember, "as long as it works, it works". Keep working at it and you will have the Schlage C keyway down pat. As Robotnik said, Yale type keyways are a good next step, you can follow them up with their derivatives which are common in ABUS's mid-range locks (and which feature a great intro to spool pins).

[Mr_Pickles]

Schlage is giving me headaches right now- Have no prob with Kwikset, masterlock, and Brinks, etc... I removed the 1st 4 pinstacks, and left the back 2, and could unlock no problem. When I added position 4 I got stuck! it's crazy... I looking at the bidding, it appears that perhaps I'm over-binding. I think it has something to do with the fact that when the pick inserted, setting positions 5 and 6, it's raising up position 4 too much... I think I need to figure out how to come at it from an angle and just barely get it moved up. The other major problem I have is I usually work on the locks in hand. I have a little hobby vise, but it doesn't grip the lock well, so it moves too much.

[nite0wl]

Mr Pickles, it sounds like you need either a slimmer pick, a narrower shaft, or a deeper hook. A slim pick might allow you to work from further down in the keyway and flex around the curve in the warding. A narrow pick shaft (euro profile) is thinner and won't hit that front pin (or not as much), a deeper hook will not require you to raise the shaft of the pick as high and may also avoid oversetting the front pin.
In a keyway like the Schlage C, a thin euro profile pick or a very thin and flexible pick is most likely to let you work around that deep pin.

[sentientsentinel]

This is great advice I was just wondering how to get a brand new padlock to loosen up and here is the answer some times the obvious just alludes me thanks for taking the time to inform us on the subject of lubricant.