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What is this design called?

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

What is this design called?

Postby totalolage » 13 Oct 2020 10:09

Image
As far as I can tell the key can only have 2 heights of bidding, but the mechanism robs a lockpinger of feedback on whether the right one is set.
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Re: What is this design called?

Postby jwrm22 » 13 Oct 2020 14:55

Looks good.
I'm a bit puzzled as you ask us what it's called? I've never seen it before and the picture is original, one you created?
If this lock exists in the real world I'm very interested in it.

As for the working principle I can see how it moves and interacts but it would be useful if you'd put it in a physics engine and just give it a try.
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Re: What is this design called?

Postby totalolage » 14 Oct 2020 17:20

jwrm22 wrote:Looks good.
I'm a bit puzzled as you ask us what it's called? I've never seen it before and the picture is original, one you created?
If this lock exists in the real world I'm very interested in it.

As for the working principle I can see how it moves and interacts but it would be useful if you'd put it in a physics engine and just give it a try.


I assume that this is either a common idea (or some variation thereof), or there is some benign reason why it's a dumb idea.
I ask what it's called in case of the former, I for some reason denied the obvious fact that it's my own brain fart in case of the latter. I made an account here for the explicit reason of posting this and don't want to bother anyone in this community by asking to for analysis of it.
I'll try to cook up a 2d physics sim.
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Re: What is this design called?

Postby jwrm22 » 15 Oct 2020 1:23

I have not seen a design like this and it does look promising.
It would be great if you could share with us the working principle of the lock.

I gave it a try and came up with.
With the correct key:
the master wafer (red) is above the shearline.
The driverpin cutout lines up with the circle.
Core rotates
Circle under the green pin attempts to move the green pin up.
Greenpin locks the driver pin.
The core is now free to rotate.

With the incorrect key or picking attempt:
The cutout in the driver is not aligned for some pin stacks.
If some pins are not at shearline the lock will not rotate.
If all pins are at a shearline the lock will rotate.
As the green pin is not able to move up the lock remains.

The circles, are those ball barings or a solid bar for all chambers?

In a meet yesterday I tossed this in the chat and we found a few things:
The green pin needs a spring if you want to be-able to mount it up side down.
The green pin you can extend and it'll remove the need for the ball baring.
Solve the problem of the master wafer falling in the gap in 3D instead of 2D, for instance if the slit for the greenpin is 2mm a 3mm driver cannot fall in.
There is not a lot of material preventing the lock from opening if one pin is holding the lock closed.
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Re: What is this design called?

Postby totalolage » 15 Oct 2020 3:43

The core idea (haha) is that a lock should be like a password; you only get a yes/no once you try to unlock, no incremental feedback.
This design should effectively lock an attacker into trying 2^(number of pins) combinations (3^ if you add another red wafer).
That brings me to bars:
I figured that it could be decipherable whether the core is binding on a blocking bearing (bottom circle) in the front of in the back, or on multiple. To avoid potentially leaking this information there could only be one blocking bearing. This would mean that the top "circle" would represent a bar, as would the green pin. The blocking bearing would however only be on the center pin, so the core always binds in the same way, regardless of if all but one pin is set correctly, or none are.
Your suggestion to solve the wafer falling in the side pin channel in 3d is a great one and yes, the green pin/bar would have to be spring loaded for sure.
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Re: What is this design called?

Postby GWiens2001 » 15 Oct 2020 7:54

It seems to me that it would likely not be difficult to pick.

There would be normal binding at first once the normal binding a picking was done, the bearing would hold the correct height driver pins in place. A simple second picking would lift the other pins to the right location due to the wide “gate” the bearing would fit in.

The security would be even further degraded by the need to have the driver pin bottoms beveled like the key pins or they would get stuck on that ramp shortly due to wear. Unless you followed the above suggestion of having the ramp are as a slit narrower than the driver pins.

The driver pins, master pins, and core would need to be steel or other hard metal to reduce wear. As the lock ages, wear would either make the lock much easier to pick open or more likely to fail to be able to unlock due to wear.

My thoughts. YMMV. I invite counter responses.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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Re: What is this design called?

Postby totalolage » 15 Oct 2020 9:50

You are absolutely right Gordon. If it was constructed by this initial drawing, it would be a trivial pick (and I totally missed it).
My thought now is to push the main pin stack over to the left, so there would be enough space for the pins to no longer be accessible when the core has turned far enough to bind on the bearing. I'll come up with an updated design.
I'd also like the slot which the bearing rides in on the core to be smoothed over, without instantaneous changes in angle, that would decrease wear significantly.
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Re: What is this design called?

Postby totalolage » 15 Oct 2020 18:27

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