S & G 831-B

[rrkss]

I've picked the lock to sidebar successfully, no feedback on the tension wrench when I press on the pins and all pins feel set. Now I need to go about rotating those pins. Don't know how to tackle this challenge. Without going through the hassle of building a medecoder, what tool would you reccommend and what type of feedback would I get if I successfully rotate a pin into the proper position?

[Squelchtone]

I've picked the lock to sidebar successfully, no feedback on the tension wrench when I press on the pins and all pins feel set. Now I need to go about rotating those pins. Don't know how to tackle this challenge. Without going through the hassle of building a medecoder, what tool would you reccommend and what type of feedback would I get if I successfully rotate a pin into the proper position?

Welcome to lockpicking101.com forums!

Glad you are half way there on picking that S&G 831B. Couple of things. I'm sure this is a typo, but I think you meant that you picked the lock to shear successfully, and now you need to rotate the pins so that their true gates align and thus allow the sidebar fingers to enter the gates, which will allow for plug rotation, and for the padlock to open.

** btw mods, please remember that Medeco picking/decoding discussion has been cleared for public forum areas, so don't move this or lock it **

A tool I would recommend, after you have picked the pins to shear, is a half diamond. Insert the half diamond at +/- 45 degrees or at 10 o'clock or at 2 o'clock all the way into the lock and pull it out of the lock, or you can keep it in the lock and attempt to rake the pins with the tip of the half diamond pick. What this does is grabs each pin and makes it rotate around its central axis, thus moving the location of the gates on the right sides of the pins. If you just insert a rake or half diamond and rake against the direct bottom of the pins, they will have no reason to rotate because you are pressing against the axis, and not the angled chisel tips that the key bitting normally interacts with. Some pins will need 0 rotation and some will need +20 or -20 degrees. There is a stop build into each pin chamber to prevent them from free spinning 360 degrees. By the way, I have seen an 831 where all the pins were -20 degrees, but the key cuts (also known as bitting) were so high and low that picking it to shear was a real chore.

Since you seem to know about the Medecoder, you probably know the above information, but if not, then I hope it helps.

good luck, and write back with your progress or successes.

Squelchtone

[rrkss]

Thanks for the quality reply squelch. One more question, if I rake the pins like this, will the set ones bind into the sidebar groove allowing me to rake all 6 pins at once or is this more a pin to pin technique?

[JK_the_CJer]

Thanks for the quality reply squelch. One more question, if I rake the pins like this, will the set ones bind into the sidebar groove allowing me to rake all 6 pins at once or is this more a pin to pin technique?

Clockwise tension: If all of the pins are not set to shear first; they will likely not rotationally set (from raking here). There are exceptions to this: if all pins are either set OR falsely set (mushroom pins); you'll get some sidebar-sets.

Counterclockwise tension: If all of pins are not rotationally set (raking here);
they will generally not pick to shear. Though you will get binding when they are lifted; this is caused by the sidebar teeth digging into the side of the pins. You could apply counterclockwise tension and rake the pins until that springy tension feeling goes away and is replaced by the familiar stop of binding pin tumblers on the shear line; then pick to shear.

In either of these cases; you still have false sidebar gates to contend with. I'm not sure if there is a trick to raking passed these (luck and tension control, likely). When using half-diamond, hook, medecoder, etc.. a false gate will still bind (not feel a little loose when rotationally set). So if you rotationally set a pin; check to see if its still binding; do this to every rotationally "set" pin when you set a new one. If you feel that friction of the sidebar tooth digging into the false gate pin wall; you know you need fiddle with that pin some more.

Also, even if building a Medecoder seems like a pain, I suggest taking Squelchtone's advice a step further. Try building a groovegrabber; its the inner part of a Medecoder (no funky scale tube needed). This will give much greater rotational control over the pins (though it won't tell you which way to rotate them). Even a bent piece of wire can perform this function and allow you to lock into the pins' true sidebar gates.

Good luck

[rrkss]

Thanks a ton, this lock is much more challenging than the others I've picked. It does not give me the large feedback that I usually get when I hang on spools/mushroom pins. I'll let you guys know when I finally get it open without the key.

[rrkss]

Well I got it picked to shear again, though It took me about 20 minutes to do, seems like the mushroom in position number 2 likes to unset other pins when I go to setting it. Can't get past the sidebar yet using the raking technique but at least I'm halfway there. I get the springy plug feeling once I pick to shear but any reduction in tension and the pins start to unset.

[awol70]

Well I got it picked to shear again, though It took me about 20 minutes to do, seems like the mushroom in position number 2 likes to unset other pins when I go to setting it. Can't get past the sidebar yet using the raking technique but at least I'm halfway there. I get the springy plug feeling once I pick to shear but any reduction in tension and the pins start to unset.

may i suggest you go for ccw first?
then you can break the lock down.
pick it CW you just get the shackle open.
i own an 831-b and also a friend of mine,(and a phenomenal picker.) who picked one CCW.
he was shaking like a leaf,from the adrenaline rush. look....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfeQty5T ... annel_page

good picker, awesome guy...if you need help with medeco JR will always take the time to help you out.
very much like jk =)
props.

[Squelchtone]

may i suggest you go for ccw first?
then you can break the lock down.
pick it CW you just get the shackle open.

Hey wizz, what's cookin? What you aren't aware of is that the 831B he is trying to pick is brand spanking new just out of the box with all 3 keys included. =) I wonder where he got it!

So he's picking for fun, not just to get it open or taken apart.

In case anyone needs a Sargent & Greenleaf 831B-M-1 padlock new in box, never opened, we might have one up on the bay right now.. yeah, I said new in box, never opened.

Squelchtone

[awol70]

may i suggest you go for ccw first?
then you can break the lock down.
pick it CW you just get the shackle open.

Hey wizz, what's cookin? What you aren't aware of is that the 831B he is trying to pick is brand spanking new just out of the box with all 3 keys included. =) I wonder where he got it!

So he's picking for fun, not just to get it open or taken apart.

In case anyone needs a Sargent & Greenleaf 831B-M-1 padlock new in box, never opened, we might have one up on the bay right now.. yeah, I said new in box, never opened.

Squelchtone

oh,i see ...=)
lucky bugger!
best of luck to you at any rate..

[rrkss]

Well an update, I bought a medeco biaxial mortise cylinder to practice picking medecos. I have been able to pick it up to 4 pins now. I use a short hook to set each pin and a half ball pick raked at a 45 degree angle to rotate the pins. Everytime a pin rotationally sets, I hear a small click and the pin locks in place. I don't get real plug rotation when I pick to shear however, when I rotationally set pins, I do get some plug rotation.

[awol70]

Well an update, I bought a medeco biaxial mortise cylinder to practice picking medecos. I have been able to pick it up to 4 pins now. I use a short hook to set each pin and a half ball pick raked at a 45 degree angle to rotate the pins. Everytime a pin rotationally sets, I hear a small click and the pin locks in place. I don't get real plug rotation when I pick to shear however, when I rotationally set pins, I do get some plug rotation.

hmm. interesting approach.
interesting results.
what is the driver array ?
wondering if you got any shrooms in there?

[rrkss]

The lock (mortise) has 2 steel pins, 2 mushrooms and 2 regular pins. I am now up to opening it with 5 pins, 2 of them mushrooms. To get from 4 to 5 pins, I switched to counterclockwise tension, and using a groovegrabber made from an ace exacto knife and 24 gauge galvanized steel wire used for hanging up paintings to first rotate the pins. Once the pins are rotationally set, I pick to sheer and the lock opens.

As far as key pins, it has 5 regular medeco pins and one ARX pin (the S&G), my practice mortise has 6 regular key pins.

For my S&G, I have 2 mushrooms and 4 regular driver pins (all brass).

For me, counterclockwise seems like the way to go, the pins are much easier to rotate before they are picked to sheer since I don't have to worry about unsetting them and can use lighter tension. Once they rotationally set, the pins bind and won't unset easily so its pretty much a breeze.

[jruther2]

may i suggest you go for ccw first?
then you can break the lock down.
pick it CW you just get the shackle open.
i own an 831-b and also a friend of mine,(and a phenomenal picker.) who picked one CCW.
he was shaking like a leaf,from the adrenaline rush. look....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfeQty5T ... annel_page

good picker, awesome guy...if you need help with medeco JR will always take the time to help you out.
very much like jk =)
props.

Thanks for the kind words buddy!

rrkss : With regards to the medeco picking...it has been my experience thus far that ccw is the way to go.
I think you're on the right track by getting the mortise cylinder and practicing with it. As a wise picker says:"practice, practice, practice" It is difficult at times to explain to someone what the difference is between the feel of a pin setting to shear and a pin rotating to properly align with the sidebar. Working your way up with the mortise cylinder will pay off it just may take some time.

I have a suggestion: You said that you have picked the mortise with 4 pins and sidebar right? Take the sidebar out and pick that thing with just those four pins over and over until the binding order is burned into your hands and mind and you have no doubt how each pin feels when you set it. Then, put the sidebar back in and notice the difference in how the pins may feel now when you set them to shear. If you don't feel a difference when you set a pin then you know that pin is rotated correctly. If it does feel different (the best I can describe it is to say that when the pin sets to shear you don't feel the same click...it is somewhat muted) then that pin is not rotated correctly. This exercise has helped me immensely to get a better understanding for how the pins should feel when they set and to know if it is rotated properly. From there, if you are picking ccw, with each pin you set you know just by the feel of lifting it if it needs to be rotated. If it does, get out your rotating tool (or use your pick if you prefer) rotate the pin, lift it again and see if it feels right this time. If not, rotate the other way and methodically work your way through.

I hope this helps. I do not claim to be an expert by any means and this is pretty much just an account of my experiences with medeco so far. If I have misspoken, I hope someone out there will set us all straight.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

[rrkss]

Thanks for the nice reply. I've gotten it picked and rotated easily with 5 pins and can do it consistantly. I've also been able to open it with 6 pins but not consistantly yet. I do notice the different muffled like sound when a non correctly rotated pin sets. The correctly set pins also seem to rattle when I rake them.

As for using a groovegrabber, I've given up with that and just use my half ball pick for the job of picking to sheer and rotating. The keyway is too restrictive to manuever it easily and the wire keeps bending.

[rrkss]

One thing, jruther, I saw your video of when picked your S&G 831-B and that inspired me to learn how to pick medeco. Awesome Job!!!