Automotive Lock Wafers

[kufnugs]

Questionable title for a newb eh? Not so much. I'm looking to see if anyone here knows where to get a wafer re "pinning?" kit for Ford locks.
I've searched google, and I've searched Here and can't find anything. I can understand why the Automotive locks section is locked off as "advanced" (despite being incredibly simple in function), but I can't say it isn't frustrating to not be able to access it in the hopes of sourcing wafers.

I understand I COULD go to a junk yard and get my hands on a bunch of old locks to source the wafers from but at the same time I'd like to avoid that route if at all possible (obviously due to the whole corrosion aspect)

could anyone with an in on the Automotive section take a peek for a source on wafers? or rather does anyone know where I could source them commercially?

Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

[Squelchtone]

Questionable title for a newb eh? Not so much. I'm looking to see if anyone here knows where to get a wafer re "pinning?" kit for Ford locks.
I've searched google, and I've searched Here and can't find anything. I can understand why the Automotive locks section is locked off as "advanced" (despite being incredibly simple in function), but I can't say it isn't frustrating to not be able to access it in the hopes of sourcing wafers.

I understand I COULD go to a junk yard and get my hands on a bunch of old locks to source the wafers from but at the same time I'd like to avoid that route if at all possible (obviously due to the whole corrosion aspect)

could anyone with an in on the Automotive section take a peek for a source on wafers? or rather does anyone know where I could source them commercially?

Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

Set up an HL Flake account, an InterMountain account, a Lockmasters account, or visit an online place such as here: http://www.plsgroup.com/%28S%28xc3x2caf ... 0&sid=5001

Sometimes ebay has stuff too:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ASP-KEYING-KIT-A421 ... 0734728810

http://cgi.ebay.com/ASP-FORD-KEYING-KIT ... 0734726696

I got all this by searching Google for a minute.. I searched for Ford keying kit and looked at companies such as ASP or LAB.

Squelchtone

[kufnugs]

perhaps I searched using the wrong choice of words then. I gotta say that was one fast response Thank you. I'll check those links out and get back.

[kufnugs]

Well, I cant thank you enough, you've set me on the right track. I am at a loss though on the year ranges for 8/10 cut keys...

I *think* i have 10 cut in my 01 and 04 crown vic (looking at the key it appears there are 10 separate "cuts", 5 being for the ignition and 5 for the door lock) (Note: I do know which cuts are for the doors and which are the ignition but since this isn't in the locked advanced forum I wont mention which is which, I fear I may have already stated more than I should). The taurus has far fewer cuts than the vics do, but its nothing leaving a few wafers out of the vics couldn't solve assuming they're different and my sight isn't just failing..

Basically what I'm trying to do is to use my chipped Taurus key to operate my non chipped vics (the vics are fleet and are keyed alike and I find it incredibly convenient).

I have taken apart and cleaned mazda/ford locks before so the actual know how on rewaffering is in the head.

Side note, I understand this stuff is deemed Advanced by the LP101 rules, I do apologize. I just simply do not have enough time to devote to LP101 in order to earn access to the advanced section.

[Squelchtone]

Side note, I understand this stuff is deemed Advanced by the LP101 rules, I do apologize. I just simply do not have enough time to devote to LP101 in order to earn access to the advanced section.

you may find more help and less advanced requirement at another Key forum on the internet that is devoted to Picking locks, but I cant mention their name........



Squelchtone

ps. I think picking car locks is the real sticky subject matter, asking where to find a car wafer kit, I dont see the harm, but I know the rules tend to say "anything" car related is off limits, so I guess I can't tell you I had a 1981 Camaro in high school, cuz it may be advanced.. =) off to the rules thread to see if we're breaking any.

[Squelchtone]

I almost forgot.. lots of videos about locks on youtube, so maybe if you search crown victoria and lock or key or wafer something will come up with someone taking one apart. I'm not a car lock guy, so I dont know about the Taurus vs Crown Vic question.

But I did find this for you, which I'm sure will be a weekend project in your near future: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPunP6JXWPY


Squelchtone

[kufnugs]

Yea, I could imagine there being every up and coming thief attempting to get their know how from a forum such as this. The sad reality is that anything they could want and more is available openly all over the internet, at least on the automotive aspect. I've gotta get my eyes checked out though, grabbed a magnifying glass to check the key closer and I was wrong about the cut number. If possible could you delete my post prior to your response, I believe that may be too open for the non locked section. that and the info on the keys were incorrect.

To ease possibly worried minds let me briefly introduce myself..

I am Jeramy, I work for a private security contractor (security guards basically). I perform fleet maintenance on all of our vehicles. My intention is to test out rewaffering on my own cars (I suppose 3 could count as a fleet too ) then if it works out I will be keying the company fleet to a single key. In the last month alone two of our "squads" have been put out of service temporarily due to lost keys and the hope is that having a single key could avoid lost time and money significantly. Since we don't buy our vehicles new from the factory we rarely get even two that are keyed alike. Ford has also been so kind as to discontinue fleet lockset kits so going the easy route of just swapping tumblers is out the window. Thanks Ford!

In any case you have pointed me in the right direction and I've found that it was due to my own poor choice of words in google that caused it, I was searching with "automotive lock wafers" and "ford lock wafers". For some reason it didnt dawn on me to try repining kit

Again thank you VERY much!

Edit: I'll have to check those out, My knowledge on automotive locks only goes as far as stripping them down to clean corrosion or to remove a stubborn broken bit of key. If only Schlage and Kwikset made locks for car manufacturers, I would've already had them repinned AND master keyed in the time it has taken me to post! (first job was in maintenance for an apartment complex, repining happened almost daily!)

[kufnugs]

oh wow, I don't think I could abuse any car by doing that! more power to the people who do, just aint my cup of tea.

I found and ordered the right kit, I don't think I would've even come close to finding it without your links! With any luck it'll show up sometime next week!

[Evan]

I am Jeramy, I work for a private security contractor (security guards basically). I perform fleet maintenance on all of our vehicles. My intention is to test out rewaffering on my own cars (I suppose 3 could count as a fleet too ) then if it works out I will be keying the company fleet to a single key. In the last month alone two of our "squads" have been put out of service temporarily due to lost keys and the hope is that having a single key could avoid lost time and money significantly. Since we don't buy our vehicles new from the factory we rarely get even two that are keyed alike. Ford has also been so kind as to discontinue fleet lockset kits so going the easy route of just swapping tumblers is out the window. Thanks Ford!

@kufnugs:

First off your idea is a pretty bad one...

Think of the ramifications of having all of your security vehicles on one key:

-- If you have a vehicle out to be repaired, you have given the repair technician a key which operates any of the security vehicles on site...

-- If you ever sell a used security vehicle, you will have to provide the buyer with a key which operates that vehicle which also operates the other security vehicles on site...

-- If a set of security keys is ever lost or stolen which has a vehicle key on it, whoever stole the keys or finds them will have a key which operates any of the security vehicles on site...

Second your problem is one of personnel issues and procedural issues...

This critique comes from a person who has many moons of experience with security and facilities management...

Here are some basic recommendations to resolve your problems:

-- Keysets shall at the very least be identified by a brass numbered tag which is indicated on an inventory sheet which contains the ID numbers of all keysets in use as well as which keys are assigned to each keyset on the list...

-- Your employer needs to implement a sign out log for all keyset transactions... This log is a "chain of custody" document where employees receiving such keys from an employee authorized to issue them are monetarily responsible for the loss of the keys they are accepting charge over...

-- All keysets not in use need to be secured in a locked cabinet or desk drawer in the security office only to be issued or collected by the supervisor in charge of the shift as needed...

-- All keysets need to be inventoried during shift changes by the outgoing and incoming supervisors, any missing keys discovered during this process would result in the personnel who signed for the keys in the keyset log being contacted... Usually this results in finding that the keys were accidentally removed from the premises by an employee which can be noted in the log and the employee with the keys directed to return them to the site the next day...

-- A site manager or director of security shall keep a supply of extra functional copies of all keys in use at the site, properly stamped and marked and ready to go as spare keys... These spare keys are only to be used by the manager to replace broken, bent or damaged keys that become unserviceable so any disruption in the security operations can be minimized... Spare vehicle keys are to be issued only when it is confirmed that one of the authorized keysets already issued and in use has been lost...

-- There should never be a situation created where there is only one accessible copy of a given key in a security operation... A supervisor's keyset should contain either appropriate master keys to be able to access all areas or copies of the actual keys used by security on site if the system is not mastered (or master keys are reserved for managers or client personnel only for whatever reason), as well as keys to each vehicle in use on the site...

Ex: Say if keyset #10 had the only key to a certain door on site on it, when that keyset goes missing there will be somehow be some need or reason to open that certain door during the shift...

If keyset #4 goes missing and it contained the only keys to the 4x4 security vehicle, it will happen on a day when it is snowing or raining and you need to use the 4x4 truck for the mobile security patrol...

This is why a supervisor's keyset should contain keys to everything the supervisor is responsible for supervision of -- if the only key to a vehicle becomes locked inside that vehicle, it becomes a useless asset at the very least and a hazard to safety if the vehicle was left running when the lockout occurred...

If you have any additional questions or concerns that were not addressed by my posting above, feel free to ask them here or send me a PM...

~~ Evan

[kufnugs]

Evan

You make some very valid points, I'd also say some very useful suggestions!

I actually got this idea from police fleets in the area. All of the major police fleets use keyed alike systems with their vehicle management. I'm not saying that is the most secure option for the very reasons you made apparent. For further clarification we operate much like a police department with a secured parking area at the main office, our vehicles then get signed out for use at off site accounts or patrol. The keys for the vehicles are issued to the employees upon assignment to a certain vehicle. So they keep the key with them even when the vehicle isn't logged out.

We have attempted the hard copy suggestion in the past (manager holding on to copies for all cars) but that can and has messed us up in the past quite a few times, first occurrence was while the guy who was holding the keys was out of state for a seminar of some kind and had the keys locked in his desk which was locked in his office, no one but him had the access to his desk. The second time I can recall is when he too lost the copies at home. While I'm not implying the great suggestions you provided aren't possible, They would be incredibly difficult to implement due to the layout of operations, the issue mostly being that between the hours of 1600 and 0900 no one but office staff (who are at that time off of work) have access to the office itself. We attempted a key box accessible to the patrol staff in the past but due to the box taking a beating from someone trying to open it we quickly canned that idea.

Our vehicle keys are they only issue we have with key management, I cannot recall a single instance where a set of account keys went missing. Those keys are kept with the accounts assigned vehicle locked within the console gun safe (thankfully combination, no keys to lose) when no longer in service. (per policy, employees weapons are not to be locked in the safe after their shift is complete, so if anyone were to break in and get the safe open they would only find a set of keys with the account number on the tag, no addresses or other identifiable information, best of all no firearm)

I will make an attempt to implement some of your suggestions as they would offer the best level of security. But after years of dealing with lost and damaged keys in the cars impacting our operations I feel the fleet key system to be our last option.

[Evan]

Evan

You make some very valid points, I'd also say some very useful suggestions!

I actually got this idea from police fleets in the area. All of the major police fleets use keyed alike systems with their vehicle management. I'm not saying that is the most secure option for the very reasons you made apparent. For further clarification we operate much like a police department with a secured parking area at the main office, our vehicles then get signed out for use at off site accounts or patrol. The keys for the vehicles are issued to the employees upon assignment to a certain vehicle. So they keep the key with them even when the vehicle isn't logged out.

We have attempted the hard copy suggestion in the past (manager holding on to copies for all cars) but that can and has messed us up in the past quite a few times, first occurrence was while the guy who was holding the keys was out of state for a seminar of some kind and had the keys locked in his desk which was locked in his office, no one but him had the access to his desk. The second time I can recall is when he too lost the copies at home. While I'm not implying the great suggestions you provided aren't possible, They would be incredibly difficult to implement due to the layout of operations, the issue mostly being that between the hours of 1600 and 0900 no one but office staff (who are at that time off of work) have access to the office itself. We attempted a key box accessible to the patrol staff in the past but due to the box taking a beating from someone trying to open it we quickly canned that idea.

Our vehicle keys are they only issue we have with key management, I cannot recall a single instance where a set of account keys went missing. Those keys are kept with the accounts assigned vehicle locked within the console gun safe (thankfully combination, no keys to lose) when no longer in service. (per policy, employees weapons are not to be locked in the safe after their shift is complete, so if anyone were to break in and get the safe open they would only find a set of keys with the account number on the tag, no addresses or other identifiable information, best of all no firearm)

I will make an attempt to implement some of your suggestions as they would offer the best level of security. But after years of dealing with lost and damaged keys in the cars impacting our operations I feel the fleet key system to be our last option.

@kufnugs:

I would say that your current system doesn't work...

Also your vehicles are not "signed out" in the sense of a "chain of custody" type log, they are picked up by the operators and casually "logged" on the honor system self-serve... As far as your key security and accounting is concerned I think no major incidents have occurred only due to sheer luck, rather than by design and intent backed up by good policy implementation...

It seems like I have correctly identified the problem as one of personnel... Your security office should be manned 24x7 by at least one person in order to actually "secure" your fleet... Too many people have access to the parking area to self-serve their assigned vehicles... You only have not had serious problems because your employees are generally honest...

No keys at any time should ever be inaccessible to staff -- that means that no one should be locking sets of keys in offices which are not open to people who need access to those keys around the clock...

Sounds to me like your problems can be solved by creating a gate/key keeper position at your office location... Since the cars are returned to that parking area when they are not in use, only one set of keys needs to be in use for each vehicle at any given time... The client keys should not be left unattended even in the vehicle in the secure parking area -- the personnel should be carrying the keysets on their person during their assigned tour... Someone could utilize the fact that the keys are being left unattended in the vehicles for many hours out of the day simply through basic surveillance by following the patrol unit back to base to see where it is parked...

Signing the keys in and out at the office by having a person there to deal with it 24x7 keeps things the most secure, would allow for maximum flexibility in the deployment of vehicles, as keys are no longer issued to specific employees for specific assignments which can not be changed or altered without a major effort...

-- How do you handle it when someone calls in sick for their assigned shift and no one else with keys to the correct vehicle which has that client site key's locked up in it is available ?

-- What happens when someone locks keys in a vehicle during their shift ? Do you call a lockout service or is there a manager that has to be woken up to go get the spare keys from the office because no one else on at night has access to them ?

~~ Evan

[kufnugs]

-- How do you handle it when someone calls in sick for their assigned shift and no one else with keys to the correct vehicle which has that client site key's locked up in it is available ?

-- What happens when someone locks keys in a vehicle during their shift ? Do you call a lockout service or is there a manager that has to be woken up to go get the spare keys from the office because no one else on at night has access to them ?

~~ Evan

Haha! for both of those scenarios it is to attempt to wake up a manager, if that doesn't happen via telephone the patrol supervisor goes beating on the door of the GM! Our system is obviously flawed in many many ways, I just wish I were in a position to call the shots and make changes because the "calling in sick" issue happens all too often.

Our current GM is planning retirement by next march.. with any luck the plan will remain to be promoting our senior patrol supervisor. We could then set the standard for operations vs being lucky!

[Evan]

-- How do you handle it when someone calls in sick for their assigned shift and no one else with keys to the correct vehicle which has that client site key's locked up in it is available ?

-- What happens when someone locks keys in a vehicle during their shift ? Do you call a lockout service or is there a manager that has to be woken up to go get the spare keys from the office because no one else on at night has access to them ?

~~ Evan

Haha! for both of those scenarios it is to attempt to wake up a manager, if that doesn't happen via telephone the patrol supervisor goes beating on the door of the GM! Our system is obviously flawed in many many ways, I just wish I were in a position to call the shots and make changes because the "calling in sick" issue happens all too often.

Our current GM is planning retirement by next march.. with any luck the plan will remain to be promoting our senior patrol supervisor. We could then set the standard for operations vs being lucky!

All the more reason to print out both of my long-winded replies to this thread and show them to someone who is in management...

Seems to me that being able to roll with the punches and reallocate equipment on a whim in case of call out or some sort of mechanical trouble would make business run more effectively and efficiently without having to wake up the bosses in the middle of the night...

Also being able to actually document chain of custody on client keys and account for where they actually are at all times rather than where you think/hope they are/intend for them to be could come in handy if certain types of incidents happen at a client location where it is clear an unauthorized person somehow got ahold of a set of keys...

~~ Evan

[amlwchlocksmiths]

Well, I cant thank you enough, you've set me on the right track. I am at a loss though on the year ranges for 8/10 cut keys...

I *think* i have 10 cut in my 01 and 04 crown vic (looking at the key it appears there are 10 separate "cuts", 5 being for the ignition and 5 for the door lock) (Note: I do know which cuts are for the doors and which are the ignition but since this isn't in the locked advanced forum I wont mention which is which, I fear I may have already stated more than I should). The taurus has far fewer cuts than the vics do, but its nothing leaving a few wafers out of the vics couldn't solve assuming they're different and my sight isn't just failing..

fords have 6 cuts on all.and the cuts differ by 1,2,3,4

go to a locksmith shop and ask them to read the lock and cut a key,easy and cheap.

[Eyes_Only]

Well, I cant thank you enough, you've set me on the right track. I am at a loss though on the year ranges for 8/10 cut keys...

I *think* i have 10 cut in my 01 and 04 crown vic (looking at the key it appears there are 10 separate "cuts", 5 being for the ignition and 5 for the door lock) (Note: I do know which cuts are for the doors and which are the ignition but since this isn't in the locked advanced forum I wont mention which is which, I fear I may have already stated more than I should). The taurus has far fewer cuts than the vics do, but its nothing leaving a few wafers out of the vics couldn't solve assuming they're different and my sight isn't just failing..

fords have 6 cuts on all.and the cuts differ by 1,2,3,4

go to a locksmith shop and ask them to read the lock and cut a key,easy and cheap.

I think you're talking about the Ford tibbe locks. Those are the rotating disc locks with 4 different angles. In the US we used for a long time either a standard 10 cut or 8 cut wafer lock with 5 depths.