Got a chance to play around with this really cool new lock design out of Canada and I think some of you guys may be interested in seeing how it works.
Its a Hybrid of a Pin tumbler lock and a "hidden keyway" lock (kind of a similar idea to the "Forever Lock" in that there is no direct access to the pins).
It's got a bunch of interesting features so I will just post my video here so you guys can check it out:
(You can use the time stamps on the YouTube watch page to jump to any section of the video).
Interesting, and very cool design. Thanks for sharing!
Two thoughts on the design, though...
In terms of bumping, I'm not sure that the overset pins will restrict things in the way that you're thinking? The pins aren't actually overset while the key is in the "operating" position: they're only overset until the key is rotated 180° (at which point they drop down and come into contact with the key bitting). So, once you've twisted a bumpkey into the correct position, the pins would come into contact with the bitting of key -- and the design looks almost perfect to allow for the correct amount of in/out movement that you'd need for a bumpkey to work. (So, I think you could bounce the pins back up to the shearline.) It would almost be better to have a rotating element in the back of the keyway that works like a drive cam on a safe lock: it would still deliver the anti-tensioning advantage, would prevent any in/out movement of the key while it's in the operating position, and (as a bonus) would avoid having to do the "insert, turn, insert further, and then turn" sequence... you'd just push the key in fully the first time, before rotating.
Having said that, I would still agree with you that it would be extremely difficult to just file down a standard blank and get a working bumpkey. The bumpkey wouldn't be able to tension the lock until it hits the back of the keyway... and that would likely end up making it an incredibly difficult game of timing. If you tried to tension the key even a fraction of a second before the tip of the key engages, then it'll just rotate out of position. (Although it looks like there's a detent that helps to hold the key in the 180° position, so that would make it a bit easier.) Perhaps some sort of custom bumping tool with a spring-loaded tensioning tip?
My other thought is impressioning. It would be impossible with the stainless blanks, but, if you make a brass blank, I don't see anything in the design that would provide protection against that. Has anyone tried impressioning with 3D-printed plastic keys? (I'm just thinking that, in this instance, it would be far easier to make them that way.) I'm not sure how the newer 3D-printing plastics would hold out: while they'd mark far easier than brass (so they'd require less tension when impressioning), they're also much more brittle... I don't really have a sense of how those two factors would balance out. My guess is that you'd break a lot of keys in this instance, given the design.
Nice lock. It reminds me a safe lever lock, that has the flag cut like this key and a tube that prevents direct access to the levers like this new lock does with the pins. Don't remember the lock brand but I hope that someone will chime in with the brand name.
To pick it you just need a "spiral" pick that needs to be rotated instead of pushed in and out. Tensioning is a problem but I'm sure someone will find a way sooner or later.
To bump it, you need to offset the cuts to make a working bump key.
I'm happy to see something new. Just don't assume it's much more secure than other locks. It hasn't been picked jet because it still a prototype. Time will tell.
Are you think of the Barrier premier lock femurat? Bumping seems very feasible, as does impressioning, as does picking. Just make a bump key with a beveled tip. The key still seems very weak where the bit meets the stem. MCS or Protec is still much better IMO. What does this thing cost?
- The lock face and shield is made out of 17-4 staniless steel.
- I tested only the Biting section of the key by pressing down on it with my fingers as hard as I could and it would not bend. I then took the key and pressed the biting section against the corner of my wall as hard as I could and it did not deform or break. Only extended use tests will see the real life of the key, but I think you guys will really be surprised at how strong this key is.
It looks like the lock costs $105 USD per deadbolt ( + 4 keys) on the Kickstarter page.
Interestingly enough - they offer a "Lock pickers challenge kit" that includes 1 cylinder and 1 key with no deadbolt hardware for only $90 USD.
Marduk28 wrote:Interestingly enough - they offer a "Lock pickers challenge kit" that includes 1 cylinder and 1 key with no deadbolt hardware for only $90 USD.
.. what you do is get 2 keys.. file them thinner to be the same width as the usual key.. the one key has the flag which engages the rear face to tension the lock. the second half has the deep cuts with the typical bumpkey pattern. then you "bump" the key you are just pushing the second half of the key to bump the pins while you are twisting on the first half. (think of the old electric carving knife model)
if you get smart about it.. you can line up a "grove" in the two key halfs, and also find a way to slot in a small "spring" or "elastic" to get you the rebound effect to rapid bump it. (e.g. use the key face where you grip it to mount an elastic band between the 2 halfs.)
I'm thinking of buying one since I like to support fellow Canadians .
I don't think the act of bumping is going to do anything other than lift the key pins higher and they're the ones already doing the blocking of the plug, bumping in this case isn't going to create a shearline. I think making a sputnik tool which allows for lowering of the pins via piano wires coming out of holes in the valleys of "the key" and those piano wires can be withdrawn and lowered, thus allowing the key pins to lower has a better chance of working.
Squelchtone wrote:I don't think the act of bumping is going to do anything other than lift the key pins higher and they're the ones already doing the blocking of the plug, bumping in this case isn't going to create a shearline. I think making a sputnik tool which allows for lowering of the pins via piano wires coming out of holes in the valleys of "the key" and those piano wires can be withdrawn and lowered, thus allowing the key pins to lower has a better chance of working.
Squelchtone
Ok, now that I've actually looked at the design, I am even more certain that this lock can be bumped, and I see picking will be more difficult than I anticipated. Yes, the keypins are overlifted to start, but when a bump key enters, they will all sit at or below the shear line. Bumping would also be made easier because of the limited number of key cuts and variation. The space on the bit available for cutting is only the length of the pointed tip of the pins. Because of this, I also think try out keys could be an issue, especiallly if the lock has not so great tollerances.
I consider that hundred excellent lock, it won't be easy to open it, both not such and expensive lock. I want to order to myself such. [Я считаю,что зто отличный замок,его не легко будет открыть, и нетакой и дорогой замок.Я хочу заказать себе такой.*]
their statement about the oversetting of the pins and "falling" is not correct.
if you look at the design of the inner cylinder, when the key is not in the vertical position, yes they are over set.. but that's irrelevant since the key won't line up with the slot to put tension on the core..
NOW.. once you put the key vertically, yes they do fall.. BUT.. you still can't open the lock (even normally) when you first get to the vertical position. you have to push it in. when you push it in, the pins are in the same position as a regular pin lock.. they are DOWN.. (not up. ans they have already fallen).
if you create a bump key with the deepest cuts, and rotate the key vertically, (but not pushed in), then all the pins are DOWN and can be bumped like a regular lock (but you can't tension it.. since the back of the key is not in the slot..) the "anti-bumping" is not the pins.. it's the way the key has to fit into the back slot to put tension on the core..
and in fact.. I think this is a bad design, and here is why.. in regular bumping, there is no direct link between the tension on the core (rotation by hand) and the force of the hammer hitting the key..
but with this lock, if you think about it.. there is a direct link.. as the key is forced backwards by the "bump" it gets forced into the back slot, and it's 100% consistent. The distance is always the same and it always slides in the slot the EXACT SAME TIME as the timing of the cuts on the KEY force the pins UP. you just need to find the angle to grind the back "flag??". to get the timing of the force on the back face to when the pins are above the shear line.
how you would exploit this is as follows.. if you file the back of the key (flag part the slots into the back face) at a 45-degree angle.. you now rotate the key a 1/2 to 2/3 of a key width to the same direction of the angle. when you push the key forward, (but not any rotation) .. that angle on the back of the key will automatically rotate the key for you the last few degrees.. (with the same timing every time). the challenge is now the bitting and the pins which are blocked ever so slightly by the "c" cut in the inner tube.. the distance here I'm talking about is 1/2 width of the key.. so it's simple.. reduce your key (where the bitting is) to half it's width.. so the core is in the fully rotated angle. (pins are now down) but the key is off by 1/2 a width, and the angle of the back grind if lined up exactly where you want it (1/2 way on the back 45 degree angle)
in their video they mention about the distance you need to push the key in that last step to get the "flag" in the slot, and it's not a full pin distance.. easy solution.. just offset the cuts in the key and bring them back the same distance of the flag to they are lined up with the fallen pins when the key is not pushed forward
now bump away..
ALSO I suspect the is a "denial of use" attack that can be done on this lock.. find a way to rotate the inner core ( with a paperclip/pick) with no key in it) to the vertical position.. the pins fall into the empty cut in the cylinder and prevent the inner core from being rotated any more.. you now can't get the key in the lock. just like when you rotate a picked core to 180 degrees and the pins fall into the bottom of the keyway.
the only way to prevent this is to have "angle" cuts on the inner core that would lift any dropped pins so it can rotate.. BUT.. that angled cut would make it even easier to bump as there is now extra space on either side of the keyway for the pins to drop for bumping.. if there is an angle cut, then there is no need to file the bitting to 1/2 the width, as the angle cut on the core wyou give you that extra space for the pins to drop.
I would also think that it can be bumped, maybe with a two-part key; it could be picked with a "Sputnik" made of a stack of 5 thin key-shaped slices; maybe foil impressioning will work just like with dimple locks; and still I want one for my collection
Cheers mh
"The techs discovered that German locks were particularly difficult" - Robert Wallace, H. Keith Melton w. Henry R. Schlesinger, Spycraft: The secret history of the CIA's spytechs from communism to Al-Qaeda (New York: Dutton, 2008), p. 210
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