Medium security padlocks

[Squelchtone]

datagram: I like to think of Desmo as a mix between EVVA 3KS because of the sliders that move up and down, and a BiLock because of the dual sidebars.

Desmo has a great feel to it however because there is so little resistance due to the absolute lack of any springs.

I suppose while thinking about it, the old BellLock scribble locks are also a distant relative of the ASSA Desmo.

funny how this thread has diverted from medium security padlocks to exotic high security sidebar lock mechanisms..

Squelchtone

[globallockytoo]

thanks datagram. If you notice, i didnt say that it cannot be picked, just that no-one has proven it can. I have picked a great many locks over the years including the first generation Bilock, but have never even come close to a new generation unless it's full of j or k pins (which will be very rare even a heavily maison keyed cylinder).

I have never picked a protec, but i have picked primus, assa twin, abloy exec and classic, mul-t-lock, kaba quattro.

Just because I've never picked them, doesnt mean it cant be done.

But silly video's on the internet of someone picking a lock with the key for that lock in range, is not skill.

Pick locks that have no key in sight and the challenge is greater, IMHO.

[Josh K]

Much to lockinabox's desire to prove that Bilock's can be picked.....the truth behind most of those videos is that they are mostly the first generation (old - obsolete) product and the person picking them ususally has the key available to be able to see what depths they have to work with. Having the working key, helps to gain knowledge of the depths you are striving for.

No one has yet proven they can pick an abstract Bilock cylinder without the key present.

If you have the key, why would bother picking it?

You want to prove you can pick one? Pick one without a key present, then dismantle it on camera and maybe you've got something.

I challenge anyone and everyone to put up or shut up.

(I am even prepared to offer a bounty for a proven picked Bilock, without any knowledge of the keying or the key - how about $150?)

I'd be more then happy to take you up on that offer. Send me two BiLocks, whatever generation. One with a key (I have to practice somehow) and the other without a key.

If I can't pick it in an arbitrary time, say a month, I'll purchase both cylinders from you or send them back. Your choice.

I'm not saying it's an impressive system, I think it is. I'm simply saying it can be picked.

[Josh K]

datagram: I like to think of Desmo as a mix between EVVA 3KS because of the sliders that move up and down, and a BiLock because of the dual sidebars.

Desmo has a great feel to it however because there is so little resistance due to the absolute lack of any springs.

I suppose while thinking about it, the old BellLock scribble locks are also a distant relative of the ASSA Desmo.

funny how this thread has diverted from medium security padlocks to exotic high security sidebar lock mechanisms..

Squelchtone

I think I found the answer to the first one, but it is a rather odd drift.

[globallockytoo]

Much to lockinabox's desire to prove that Bilock's can be picked.....the truth behind most of those videos is that they are mostly the first generation (old - obsolete) product and the person picking them ususally has the key available to be able to see what depths they have to work with. Having the working key, helps to gain knowledge of the depths you are striving for.

No one has yet proven they can pick an abstract Bilock cylinder without the key present.

If you have the key, why would bother picking it?

You want to prove you can pick one? Pick one without a key present, then dismantle it on camera and maybe you've got something.

I challenge anyone and everyone to put up or shut up.

(I am even prepared to offer a bounty for a proven picked Bilock, without any knowledge of the keying or the key - how about $150?)

I'd be more then happy to take you up on that offer. Send me two BiLocks, whatever generation. One with a key (I have to practice somehow) and the other without a key.

If I can't pick it in an arbitrary time, say a month, I'll purchase both cylinders from you or send them back. Your choice.

I'm not saying it's an impressive system, I think it is. I'm simply saying it can be picked.

PM your address.....or maybe i'll drive up.....as long as it's not too cold ...lol

[lockinabox]

But silly video's on the internet of someone picking a lock with the key for that lock in range, is not skill.

It's funny how all the videos of Medeco or Assa locks being picked are not "silly." Many Lp101 members have posted "silly" videos of locks for which they have a key being picked. You can try to qualify the videos of BiLocks being picked all you want, but if a lock is opened without a key being inserted with lockpicking tools then that lock is picked, period. Yes, it's harder to pick it if you have not seen the key, but you cannot claim that they're "unpickable" because some of the people in the videos have a key.

If you have the key, why would bother picking it?

There are many situations in the real world (especially spams) where someone who wants access to what the lock is protecting may see or have access to the key. A lock's pick-resistance should never have to be qualified with "they can't have or see the key." An Abloy Protec or Evva MCS is unpickable after seeing the key, possessing the key, without a key, with a lock picking robot, etc...

A few videos of the New Generation super-awesome-amazing BiLock being picked:

Silly Video #1
This fellow has the nerve to disassemble the lock on camera after he picks it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJCH-k0wV5s&feature=related

Silly Video #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHc6c64DOM

Silly Video #3
This video is especially silly because he assembles the lock on camera and then picks it. What a silly guy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-rcuhDPYoM

Silly Video #4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf4Faq2d0V8&

The BiLock New Generation has also never been picked outside of these 4 videos because that is impossible and ridiculous to even consider. We all know that a 5 second Youtube search reveals every single instance of lockpicking ever successfully done on a lock.

There's someone by the handle "dangurtoo" who comments on the youtube videos of bilocks being picked and says they're fake or they had a key so it didn't count, or it's a first generation lock so it also doesn't matter, etc...

I understand that you love BiLocks, but you can't let your love for BiLocks overpower logic and reason or you are no different than Medeco locksmiths and executives who say "well Medeco is still not pickable because the lock wasn't mounted on a door and the lock picker was not blindfolded and hanging upside down while being tickled by a giant panda." There is nothing really special about a BiLock and it's blown away by the MCS, Protec, Diamant and other European locks.

Look, it's ok if the BiLock New Generation can be picked, it dosen't say anything bad about Australia as a nation or BiLock as a company. BiLock actually makes a great lock and I have around 13 of them myself (and I also think that Kangaroos are frigin awesome), but they can be picked period...............

[globallockytoo]

fair points!

[mh]

but if a lock is opened without a key being inserted with lockpicking tools then that lock is picked, period. Yes, it's harder to pick it if you have not seen the key, but you cannot claim that they're "unpickable" because some of the people in the videos have a key.

This is an interesting discussion... From a pure locksport perspective, it used to be just important that one uses other tools than the original key, regardless of whether the key code was known or not. This has changed a bit with Impressioning becoming part of the regular competitions, where the key code should be kept secret before the competition; but for picking, it's still common practice (at least in the world's oldest locksport organization...) to bring your own lock for the competition - and even practice on your friends' locks before - where in my opinion it DOES matter a lot if you know the key code or not.

For practical real life security however, keys can be more or less easily copied, so real protection only exists againts someone who doesn't know the key, and then this should also be the relevant criterion.

Evva MCS is unpickable after seeing the key, possessing the key, without a key, with a lock picking robot, etc...

Hmmm.
In the case of this lock, "unpickable" might be correct depending on the definition of the word "pick" - but if you give me a key for a few seconds, I will make you a tool in a few minutes that will open the lock nondestructively, for the majority of all currently available MCS locks. We have explained that at HAR2009.
So the MCS is maybe not the best lock for comparison here...

Cheers
mh

[Wizer]

I argee with mh.
Let say you know the code for a rotating disctumbler lock, all you have to do is dial the right combo, and it will open. Just like a combination lock.
Of course its harder with pintumblers, but knowing how high the pin sets helps alot.
-Wizer

[lockinabox]

Evva MCS is unpickable after seeing the key, possessing the key, without a key, with a lock picking robot, etc...

Hmmm.
In the case of this lock, "unpickable" might be correct depending on the definition of the word "pick" - but if you give me a key for a few seconds, I will make you a tool in a few minutes that will open the lock nondestructively, for the majority of all currently available MCS locks. We have explained that at HAR2009.
So the MCS is maybe not the best lock for comparison here...

Cheers
mh

The MCS issue is more of a key control and lock decoding issue rather than picking. The tool I assume (saw the presentation at HAR but didn't see the tool) is more of a key than a pick. Do you decode the magnets on the key and then use your own magnets to simulate the magnets in the key? If so, then you have just made a key and not a pick. I could just file away a Protec (a little drill for the dimples) or BiLock key if I had access to the original key but I don't think that under any definition I would have picked the lock. Also the fact that you are making something after you see the key nudges it even further into the decoding and making a key rather than just picking.

(Correct me if I am wrong about your tool please)

[mh]

I'd rather call it "reading" than "decoding", but my point is:
Why bother whether a lock is pickable or not with a known key code, if filing or assembling one is that easy. Key control for mechanical locks is not reliable, it's that simple.

Instead, it's important that a lock cannot be manipulated or decoded without the code being known.

Cheers
mh

[lockinabox]

I argee with mh.
Let say you know the code for a rotating disctumbler lock, all you have to do is dial the right combo, and it will open. Just like a combination lock.
Of course its harder with pintumblers, but knowing how high the pin sets helps alot.
-Wizer

The comparison between combination locks and keyed locks is not really relevant. You cannot pick a combination lock. If you took the dial off and used a "pick" to manipulate each of the discs/wheels (Falle has a tool but it requires a lot more than that) then you have come much closer to picking the lock but the dial removal is destructive and picking is generally considered to not be destructive. With a combination lock the key is always present and represented by the dial or combo buttons. No tools, skill or anything else is required to dial the correct combination. If you do not know the code then you can manipulate the lock which is nondestructive but no one would ever call this "picking." The act of lockpicking requires tools and skill and items that are not present in a complete and functioning lock (unlike a combination lock where everything is already there). You can know the key cuts but you still have to pick the lock.

But we can split hairs all day about the meaning of "picking." There are many methods to open a lock without the original key, but picking is pretty narrow in it's scope and I think it means exactly that, picking the lock using lock picks (not key duplication or decoding tools).

[lockinabox]

Instead, it's important that a lock cannot be manipulated or decoded without the code being known.
mh

Absolutely! That is the bigger picture, but for the limited scope of our discussion about the BiLock being picked, the MCS and Protec are considered to be truly unpickable locks with no qualifications.

[globallockytoo]

In my opinion, impressioning a lock is similar to picking a lock and achieves the identical purpose, being to open the cylinder non-destructively.

In fact impressioning goes one step further than picking by actually producing a working key too.

I would like to know how many people think that picking a lock is more exciting than impressioning a lock.

Also whether or not the consensus opinion is that impressioning and picking achieve the same desired purpose - therefore are (by enlarge) identical.

[Josh K]

In my opinion, impressioning a lock is similar to picking a lock and achieves the identical purpose, being to open the cylinder non-destructively.

In fact impressioning goes one step further than picking by actually producing a working key too.

I would like to know how many people think that picking a lock is more exciting than impressioning a lock.

Also whether or not the consensus opinion is that impressioning and picking achieve the same desired purpose - therefore are (by enlarge) identical.

I think picking is more exciting then impressioning.