Schlage Primus locks

[greyman]

The profile cut spacing is not uniform because the finger pins need to be rotated. My understanding is that there are 3 rotation angles used for Twin Combi: foreward, rear and none. This results in an offset of the cut position for the side pin cuts.

If there are two possible side pin elevations, then the overall number of combinations for the side millings (with 5 pins) is: 6*6*6*6*6=7776. This is only half as many as the 15,000 previously qutoed by keysman. To get this number there has to be either more twist angles (not practical) or more elevations (possible).

Anyone have any further info on this?

[fixer]

OK, I dug out my Primus information.

There are 3 angles (left, right, center) and 2 heights (high, low) for a total of 6 different finger pins.

With 5 positions of finger pins available, that gives :-

6*6*6*6*6 = 7776 finger pin combinations.

The sidebar millings are done at the factory and key blanks are not available without the millings. Uncut key blanks are not supposed to be available except to registered Primus distributors or locksmiths.

Hope this helps.

[keysman]

ok i stand corrected.
do you think the local HDW store will carry 7776 different sidebar configurations?

[fixer]

The milling on the sidebar are done by the factory and only supplied to the original dealers. While it is possible for another dealer to have the same milling, it is almost impossible for you to find that locksmith who could be anywhere in the USA.

Even when the patent runs out, it is unlikely that the individual millings will be produced by ILCO etc. What is more likely is that they will produce generic blanks and leave the side unmilled. However, you would now need special equipment to cut the side bittings.

To be honest, the amount of work to get a key for your lock would not be worth the effort. If you have that much to protect, you would have an alarm system as well as the door. A thief would look at the lock and either go somewhere else or try other doors/windows etc.

[raimundo]

Start a collection of every primus key you find in the street, or that may be thrown out by lockshops, when you get to the advanced locks cult, we'll tell you what you can do with them, (or think about it and you might figure it out)

[fixer]

Start a collection of every primus key you find in the street, or that may be thrown out by lockshops, when you get to the advanced locks cult, we'll tell you what you can do with them, (or think about it and you might figure it out)

Well, part of the Primus agreement is that you destroy miscuts and old keys from re-pinning. So the only source of blanks would be lost keys.

[locksmistress]

Combinations of side bit millings = 7776?

Take into consideration that those side bits can be applied to about 100 different key profiles (probably more).

Also, Primus Level 1 (Level 7 in Everest Primus) is available through stocking distributors - ie, locksmith supply stores. 10 different locksmiths may buy their blanks from the same supplier, sell them as their side-bit, mark them with an address stamp or serial number, and be completely on their honor to not copy each other's stuff.

In my region they generally stick to it.

Technically, it's a little more than on your honor - if you get caught at it you can loose your distribution rights and or get slapped with a nasty fine.

Still, like Medeco's Patriot line - on a technicality - it really may be all the same key.

[fixer]

Combinations of side bit millings = 7776?

Take into consideration that those side bits can be applied to about 100 different key profiles (probably more).

Well, Level 1 primus is only available in CP and EP keyways. Level 1 Plus uses an additional 5 keyways CEP, EFP, FP, FGP, GP. Levels 2-4 are the same as 1+ except the side milling is assigned individually to the locksmith/end user. There are 3 profiles that fit more than one keyway, but I am not counting them (HP, JP, KP).

So in reality it looks like we would have 7776 * 7 = 54432 different combinations of SBM and Keyway.

[devildog]

A bump key would put all of the pins clear of the shear line all at the same time, so the sidebar would then clear and allow the key to turn, right (I think this may have been what Raimundo was saying)??

[zeke79]

A bump key would put all of the pins clear of the shear line all at the same time, so the sidebar would then clear and allow the key to turn, right (I think this may have been what Raimundo was saying)??

A bumpkey for the sidebar itself would be ineffective as there are no top pins that interact with the finger pins on the sidebar of the schlage primus locks. You can get more details on schlage's website of how these locks operate and are assembled .