I can pick a Master no. 3... now what?

[blake1803]

First off -- hi everyone! I've been lurking on this forum for a while (very helpful!) but have yet to post until now. So I guess what I'm about to post is kind of long-winded, my apologies in advance for that

My primary question is -- what is a step up from a Master no. 3? It is incredibly easy for me to pick at this point. I can open it in maybe 2 seconds if raking, 10 seconds if picking one pin at a time. Not very fun since there's no challenge.

On the other hand, I have a Master no. 1 that says "commercial" on it. It's the type of Master Lock that has the grey plastic band that says "Master", rather than the blue band. I bought it at a hardware store and I can't pick it for the life of me. I've opened it maybe 4 times total, but each time has been due to furious raking and a good share of luck

Do the "commercial" Master Locks have spool pins? If not, I don't understand why this would be so much harder for me to pick than the Master no. 3. Maybe it's an oddity and this paricular lock just happens to be a lot more difficult?

In any case, now that I've conquered the Master 3, I'm looking for something to move on to. Something that will offer me a challenge but won't be too far out of my reach. Any suggestions? Padlocks are preferable since they're a bit less messy.

On a related note -- I noticed that the lock to my laundry room is made by Kwikset. I've read here that those locks are generally very easy to compromise. I have had no luck. Same thing as with the Master no. 1 -- I've opened it a few times, but only out of luck after raking for a long time.

I'm actually beginning to wonder if maybe the Kwikset and Master no. 1 that I am having trouble with are not oddities but it is in fact the Master no. 3 that is an oddity in how easy it is to pick.

Anyway, I've rambled enough for my first post, I think Any suggestions as to where to go from here would be greatly appreciated. I can see picking locks quickly becoming a favorite hobby of mine. I've always loved puzzles and am a painter -- locks are like a perfect combination of that... delicate work with your hands and critical thinking

[mike-z]

WELCOME TO LOCKPICKING101! even know youve been lurking in the shadows monitering us

[blake1803]

Hah, not exactly "monitoring." There was just so much information here it took me a while before I was faced with a more personal-experience-related question that hadn't already been answered 10 times

[Mad Mick]

Hah, not exactly "monitoring." There was just so much information here it took me a while before I was faced with a more personal-experience-related question that hadn't already been answered 10 times

I put this guy forward for the Newbie Of The Year award. We only have a handful of these types of posts, so the odds are quite good.

In contrast, those eligible for the Noob Of The Year award are getting close to the population of China!

Well done Blake.

Now, to your question...
1. Do you have the key for this #3 you are picking?
2. Are there extremes between the cuts on the key, or are they all of a similar height?

If the key has similar cuts, then you have got a very easy lock. For the price of a new #3, it's worth picking up another one with a low/high bitting...you should be able to see the key through the plastic packaging. This will give you a bit more of a challenge, and a step up the ladder to the 5 pin Kwikset. If you're handy with tools, as a lot of us are, you can actually dismantle the #3 and repin it...with a bit of cutting/grinding.

The best step, however, would be to get a Kwikset double-deadbolt set and take one deadbolt apart. Start with a couple of pins and work up to the full five. Whilst you are working up to the five pins, keep trying different configs...you don't have to pin the lock from the front to back...you can pin the lock with a high-setting pin in stack 5, then a low-setting pin in stack 4, or anywhere else for that matter...you could put them in stacks 4 and 3. Just try to think of possible scenarios you may find in a lock. You will, at some point, have to get behind that low-setting 4 pin to set the high-setting 5. Look at the bunch of keys you currently use. Work out the pin heights and positions in relation to the keys. Try to pin your practice lock similarly.

The above is just an example of what you may find in a lock off the shelf, but there are standards in regards to the maximum difference in length of pins next to eachother. This is called MACS (Maximum Adjacent Cut Specification) For the Kwikset, this is 4 - meaning that you can't have a #1 next to a #7. The only pins allowed next to the #7 would be a #3 or higher. Keep this in mind when repinning your lock and you should be able to pick it with the full 5 pins, once you've worked your way up. Once you get to that stage, you should be able to choose any of the same type lock from a store shelf and pick it in a reasonable amount of time.

There are three very important things that can't be stressed enough though...
These are Tension, Practice & Patience.
If a new lock is kicking your butt, take a break from it and go back to your 'confidence lock' - this #3 you can pick right now.

HTH.

[blake1803]

Thank you for the insightful reply... Looking at the keys for both locks, there is a very dramatic difference. I took pictures to help,

Here is the Master #3 which opens in seconds:



and here is the Master #1, which I cannot pick:



I'm a bit confused as to how exactly the length and height of the cuts play into all of this. How does that affect the difficulty of picking the lock? How would I change my approach when dealing with the #1 versus the #3? On the #3, you can clearly see four separate cuts for each of the four pins, and they're all about the same height. But with the #1, I only see three cuts and of very different lengths.

I'll definitely look into getting a pair of Kwikset deadbolts and have been meaning to do so. Right now, though, I think I need just a little better understanding of the mechanics of these locks.

I guess I am now venturing into the area of questions that I can find the answers to by using the search function, but since I already created the thread and have pictures...

Tension, practice, patience... I like that. I have all three of those, but I need more of the second and think I have the wrong kind of the first

[digital_blue]

Hey blake!

On the Master #1, there are in fact 4 pins there. What makes it so difficult to pick is the fairly extreme difference in adjacent pin lengths (usually referred to a high/low pinning). The reason this is a difficult configuration is because you will often lift the deeper cut pin (longer pin) too high when trying to set the shallow cut pin (shorter pin) behind it.

In order to combat this, you will usually fair best with a hook as opposed to, say, a half diamond. If you have trouble with a hook, you sometimes need to move to an even deeper hook, though I don't think that should be needed on a Master #1.

Hope this helps! Happy picking!

db

[Mad Mick]

I can't really say much more than db has just said but, what I did say in the previous post, is precisely what you should be practicing for in the future.

Let's start with bitting and stack positions.
A key bitting is determined by the depths of the cuts on the key blank, starting from the bow (handle), to the tip. The cut nearest the handle is the 1st stack position and corresponds to the front pinstack in the lock. Subsequent cuts, which may be of the same height, or of varying depths, will progress along the blank, usually visibly indicating the number of pinstacks in the lock. If you are unsure of how many pinstacks are in a lock, you can use one of two methods to verify.
1. If you have a key, you can look at the bitting.
2. If you have no key, you can use a pick.

Using method 1, locks use a uniform distance between key cuts, known as 'spacing'. If you have a key, such as your #1, where you're not sure how many pins are in the lock, you can look at the centre distance between cuts and follow them back to the shoulder. (the protruding part of the handle, which forms a right-angle to the blank) Count backwards from the obvious cut at the tip, using the equal distance between cuts, until you reach the point where another cut would pass the shoulder.

Method 2. Use the flat under-side of a half-diamond and insert facing the pins. Push up all of the pins at once, then slowly withdraw the pick, counting the 'clicks' as the pins snap back to rest.

If you take another look at the key for the #1, you will notice some very different depths of cut as compared to the #3. If you can now imagine the pins in the lock, looking at the #1 key, you will see that the bitting requires the pins in the 1st and 3rd stacks to be raised quite a bit more than the 2nd and 4th. This is the scenario I suggested with the practice lock...you have to raise the lower (key) pins of stacks 1 & 3, without inadvertently raising the pins of stacks 2 & 4 too high. (over-setting)

[digital_blue]

I can't really say much more than db has just said but...

you still managed to anyway.

Just kiddin' ya Mick. All good info!

db

[vector40]

And rakewise, the reason an "easier" bitting is easier to handle is because you'll set pins much more easily on a simple horizontal motion -- whereas if you've got lots of variation in cut height, you might rake and set half of them but drastically overset the other half, then on the next rake set those ones, but upset then seriously underset the first ones... and so forth. Raking is always easier (like, exponentially so) with a humane pinning.

[eatjiggy]

Is It possible to take a No.3 apart without like torching it orr something?....

[sl_aus]

Is It possible to take a No.3 apart without like torching it orr something?....

You can grind down the protruding rivet heads and lever the bottom plates off. I did it recently and butchered it to a point where I wouldn't bother using it as a padlock again - the cylinder/plug is fine though.

[Mad Mick]

Is It possible to take a No.3 apart without like torching it orr something?....

Yes! (click me)

[sl_aus]

Is It possible to take a No.3 apart without like torching it orr something?....

Yes! (click me)

Awesome instructions, I wish I'd found that post before...