Weird double key lock?

[stlbolt]

Has anyone ever heard of a lock where it takes 2 types of keys? One is a regular key hole then there is another little hole under it where you stick a pen or something? My friend from the UK was saying he saw one in a old building when he was I guess searching for old stuff... Ive never heard of this..

[hzatorsk]

Some brass padlocks have a keyway with a hole under or near the keyway. In these locks, the purpose of the hole has nothing to do with the opening of the lock... but more so to allow water out of the lock to keep it from freezing.

Some other locks have a hole near the keyway and a pin is used to conjunction with the key in order to remove the plug for rekeying purposes.

Without a picture, a brand or a much better description... that's about the best I can offer.

z

[quacking_duck]

"Two keyed UK lock from days gone by, in an old building??"
"A little hole where you can stick a pen or something??" - possibly a Bramah type keyway, as that is what these would look like, although if it was, there'd be absolutely no chance of opening that with a pen!
It may possibly have been some sort of Bramah hybrid, although we'll never know without more info / photo.
Try and get your friend from the UK to give a bit more detail about the qualities of the lock that you can post.

Q.D.

[stlbolt]

Err my spelling mistake I meant "pin" But yeah Ill see if he can get some pics. Thanks!

[Chucklz]

At a hair salon (of all places) near me there is a lever lock with two key holes. The lower keyway appears to be of a heavier (larger diameter) gague. I don't know anything about this lock besides casual looks when walking past, but there it is.

[quacking_duck]

Chucklz,

Very interesting stuff. Do they currently, or have they ever manufactured any lever locks in the States or would they be imported? I'm surprised to hear of a lever lock with such an unusual set-up in Philadelphia.

The one you described sounds like an old European double keyed mastered lever lock. Lips made these in Europe up until the 1960s or thereabouts. The ETAS Company (Enoch Tonks and Sons) possibly also made a similar lock in the U.K. at the time.

In this type of lock, there were two sets of cuts in the levers, the 5g lower keyway operating cuts at the bottom of the levers for the differ keys;
the 7g or 8g upper keyway operated the master cuts in the middle of the levers. The upper keyway was smaller to prevent differ keys being inserted.

If it is this type of lock, they would be very seldom seen, even in the U.K. today, as MKd lever locks here using security other than wards would typically be single keyed Chubb 3G110 serties or possibly Union 2197 series detainer locks.

STLBolt, 'pin' instead of 'pen' puts a whole new frame on the lock ID possibilities, so I don't think now that it could possibly be a Bramah type lock. Look forward to some photo's.

Regards,

QD

[eric343]

Before the advent of master-keying wafers, Yale made "Eaton" bicentric locks, which are mortise locks with two keyways and two plugs.

These are probably not what you're talking about, though...

[NKT]

There are a few Bramah locks that had a locking pin. They were used for holding the latch back, or locking the latch forward, and so disabling the key, in the same way as a Yale latch has a snib.

[raimundo]

Actually lever locks were common in the US until post wwll. they are still interior locks, though those are not the five lever type that was on the front door of the house I grew up in. Older houses, and rural ones still have them. But as the locksmiths quit fixing them, they sold the cylinder locks to replace them, the key to keeping an old lock going is not to lose the key since its nearly irreplaceable now. with the machines and the locksmiths who understood the locks mostly gone. Eric mentions a double cylinder yale, where one plug is the clients and the other is the master key, to picture this thing, its a cylinder with two plugs drilled in and the pins and springs are drilled to angle along side the opposite plug. the mortise lock its made for will open to the cam of either of the two plugs, its a strange one to look at. but I have seen them.

[Chucklz]

Lever locks are quite common on internal doors in the small city of Easton Pennsylvania. This was an old mill town, and many of the homes were at one time "company homes" There are literally hundreds of 2 lever locks within easy walking distance. Almost all have their bolts painted over. I doubt many people realize that with a small amount of work they could actually lock these doors.

I have seen a few lever locks on external doors in the area. However, almost all the old doors have been defiled with some cheap garbage kwikset deadbolt.


Thanks for the information on the MK'ed lever lock. I assumed it was some kind of MK system, as the building was once owned by US Steel, and "rented" to workers.

[quacking_duck]

Thanks for the info, Raimundo and Chuckles, re US lever locks. I'd never heard of any lever locks in the States and always assumed locks were mainly rim cyls, cyl mortice deadbolts and kik's. It's a shame US householders are replacing them though. If it was Medeco deadbolts, I could quite understand, but Kwikset, oh no! P.S., Chuckles, sorry about the 'Philadelphia'. I need to brush up on my US State abbreviations.

I'm starting to understand the concept of the Yale bicentric a bit better now if the pins and springs are angled to each side of the opposite plug. So, as there are 2 separate plugs, turning 2 separate cams, do the master plugs eliminate the need to use any split pins if they are all keyed alike within the system and the change-key plugs are keyed to differ? (Assuming there are no GM, GGM keys etc.)

NKT, I've got Bramahs in my collection, but not one like the one you described. Are they mortice type deadlatch locks like the Chubb 3R35 and a Bramah-type mech? I'll have to try and get one to take to bits and play with if they still make them and when I can afford another one.

[zxvasdf]

Some other locks have a hole near the keyway and a pin is used to conjunction with the key in order to remove the plug for rekeying purposes.

z

i am actually curious about that. how is that done? i would like to be able to remove the plug to observe it more closely