Visit to Local Lock Smith: Disses Abloy "Discs jam! <

[v12v12]

Yep that's right, I went in to the local smith, who's basically the monopoly for Upenn and the surround district. I was looking around and as usual, he assumed I was just some spoiled campus brat about to be sold on some overly expensive lock... that is until I asked him if he carried any Abloys or Evva? He immediately scoffed at the request of Abloy saying, "HA! Those locks are junk! They discs are always getting jammed up and getting them re-keyed are impossible and $$$... besides, everyone is switching to the new Mul-T-lock, which is better anyway."
Well what about Medeco, do you carry any of them? "Nagh, those things are going by the waste also... many old city complexes had them, but the deep cuts in the keys would cause the keys to eventually snap off in the lock when the person was trying to pull them out and go... Mul-T-Lock is the new standard...blah blah." I tried to withhold my inner laughter, but he was very confident in his banter and Mul-T boast. Then I began to think "Michaud's attack...Hrmm" But apparently that exploit has now been rectified, and once again the boasting of "un-pickable" was touted....

So, what do you guys in the advanced community think about this guy's assessment of Abloy flaws and Mul-T-Lock superiority? I didn't feel like being pushed into buying the only brand he wanted to sell to me... Basically I'm looking for an UBER security lock, with upper guards and all, to match my triple alloy chain to protect my racing Mnt-bike from the city thieves' hands...

[n2oah]

Forget about it. He is just ignorant. Maybe he is thinking about Abloy locks before the Disk Lock Pro where the key didn't need to be all the way in the lock before it was turned. If I were you, I'd bring my Abloy Protec cutaway in and show him that Abloys are superior. Mul-t-Locks just don't compare to an Abloy or Evva, or even a Medeco. I am working on picking a Mul-t-Lock right now. Btw, new Medecos have really thick blanks to prevent breaking

EDIT: You should've mentioned Mul-t-Locks being bumped. That would've sent him into orbit!

[zeke79]

I'll be honest here and say that abloy key equipment is not cheap for a US dealer to be able to supply keys to customers. That's a huge investment and carrying more than one high security system may not be cost effective for some shops. Don't assume someone who is selling MulTLock to be a Scammer. If you pick a MulTLock Interactive lock then come see me about this. MulTLock makes a quality product. Is it as good as abloy, well that is subjective about the environment the lock is being placed in. Do some research and see what you think is best. Talk to a dealer of a UL listed lock that YOU think is best. Buy that lock if you are comfortable with it and go from there. Alot of UL locks can be picked, but if they can be picked when properly installed on your door is another story indeed .

Key control is the biggest issue that is accomplished with UL listed locks. And honestly that is half of the battle as most UL listes locks are not easily picked.

[Varjeal]

I was looking around and as usual, he assumed I was just some spoiled campus brat about to be sold on some overly expensive lock... that is until I asked him if he carried any Abloys or Evva? He immediately scoffed at the request of Abloy saying, "HA! Those locks are junk! They discs are always getting jammed up and getting them re-keyed are impossible and $$$... besides, everyone is switching to the new Mul-T-lock, which is better anyway."
Well what about Medeco, do you carry any of them? "Nagh, those things are going by the waste also... many old city complexes had them, but the deep cuts in the keys would cause the keys to eventually snap off in the lock when the person was trying to pull them out and go... Mul-T-Lock is the new standard...blah blah."

Here's what I think: The personal telling you this is likely relating his own experience, which is true enough for him. Once he's had to pay for a kit for abloy, and likely hired someone to cut keys or ordered them from factory. He's quite likely also encountered, as have I, Medeco keys broken off in locks, generally cut close to MACS twisted by little old ladies who only put the key in far enough to get leverage where that deep cut is. Can't do that with Abloy or Mul T Lock now, can ya? He's also likely just recently spent 3-5 grand (or whatever the equivalent is) for the equipment and inventory to outfit his shop, so I'm not suprised at all. Is it "the new standard"? No. But his sales literature probably says so.

Take it in stride, make your own decisions.

[devildog]

Get a multlock bumpkey. Learn how to use it on a few multlocks. Bring it in his shop and proceed to demonstrate on his display locks (nah, don't do it in front of his customers, that's just mean)

[raimundo]

if you pack chewing gum in a lock it can be jammed, I suppose, (never tried it) but if this guy really thinks abloys are easily jammed, he's a moron and doing something wrong. How old is this guy, in his 70's? hes just trying the salesmans trick of stepping on something he knows nothing about and isn't interested in learning. The Abloy classic has been around for a hundred years in scandinavia, and it has no springs to break, it works better in ice and snow than any other lock, there is virtually no wear on the cylinder from normal use, although the tailpiece that operates the bolt may eventually wear. every time you put the key in a pin tumbler lock of any kind, whatever grit is in the keyway and on the key causes some microscopic wear to pins and key, so that an abloy classic could probably be tested to ten times the amount of wear that will break any other lock. If an abloy is jammed, it is more likely that the lock was badly installed, or the building is settling or the wood is swelling so that the bolt is under pressure in the strike hole.

[v12v12]

Wow Guys! Didn't expect such experienced members to come out! Well I think I shall address everyone's posts since they were all very pertinent... That said:

1) n2oah /devildog: Yeah I thought about that, while I was trying not to laugh at the "they are junk" comment. I was going to ask the guy if I could buy some blanks, but I figured he'd assume trouble. Then again I also thought about further asking if he could cut those Mul-T blanks to "999," by then he would have prob asked me to leave and not come back! Ha... I did see some foil-impressioning trick that Falle used at some security conference that sent the crowd into a frendzy! He was talking to the crowd about how easy it was to get a 999-blank, cover it with foil and while twisting back in forth for a few min while talking to the crowd to distract them... CLICK, TURN OMFG WHoooa every errupted with questions and gasps. But I'm not sure if the technique still applies to the newest Mul-T, Evva, Lips, Assa Twin etc. I still would have liked to have shown the guy that he might be a little too over confident in his opinion...

Which brings me to another issue he brought up: While boasting about the uber-Mul-T, he pointed to a display with a HUUUGE train yard sized version, and then says "HA this is so tough I bet a train could run it over and it would still hold..." Now come on guy, a basic freight cab weighs in at around 200,000lbs! With a very dense steel wheel, it would sheer that lock like butter. He was really intent on selling me on Mul-T-Locks!

2) zeke79: I agree, yeah from what I've learned from this site and reading around for years... Abloy > Mul-T in general. But cost prohibitive, Mul-T gets the nod, esp for keys. In particular, I'm looking for a lock cylinder for my precious racing bike. And picking either the 2 locks in broad day light in a well policed area shouldn't be much if any issue. Since most thieves around here are more brute-force than skill. And going through all that trouble to take an expensive bike and only being able to sell it for pennies on the dollar just isn't worth it to most junkies here. But I still would like to know that having a very obscure lock would completely turn off an opportunist.

3) Varjeal: Yeah I agree about the costs and all, but this guy’s shop (well I’m not sure if he outright owned it) is VERY busy and has TONS of business, he’s basically the campus monopoly and that’s a LOT of people/business. I don’t think I’m going to deal with this guy, just based on his closed-minded sales approach. I was going to ask him his opinion, but then again I didn’t want to go through the whole “this is better than that” sales pitch, that and him assuming I know nothing about locks, and then me trying to convey to him a sense that I too know a little about what locks are “better” in certain applications… Why go through all the trouble, when I can post here and get a mul-T-tude of opinions and wisdom? HA!

4) raimundo: Gum, haha… Yeah the guy was an older fellow, prob about +50’s, and had some kind of sales-chip on his shoulder. As for Abloy jamming up, aside from forcing something in the plug that doesn’t belong there, I don’t see how the discs could get jammed? Even from time, and weathering (Brass doesn’t corrode to easily either) a simple squirt of lube and or graphite lube would enable the discs to turn with ease. I think the guy was just frustrated when I sighted equal if not better alternatives to his very expensive sales pitch. When I did ask him if he had any Abloy padlocks, he said yeah… I perked up and he tosses me some sketchy looking copy-cat lock. It was heavy and robust, and when I pulled out the key I could immediately tell it was a fraud! The keys had no official stamping on them, and the cuts were very basic. Nothing at all resembling any Abloy keys I’ve ever seen. After playing around with the flimsy shackle, I noticed a LOT of play between the locking ball-bearings and the shackle…He finally comes around to saying that it’s just like an Abloy, I then handed it back to him and thanked him….

All said and done, I’m just looking for the strongest lock I can find for a reasonable price. Something that has a body/shackle which is equal or of greater metallurgic quality than my tri-alloy chain… since a chain is no stronger than it’s weakest link, that being a cheap lock. I’ve noticed around here (phila) that many people think that getting the best lock will secure their belongings, but when I see a shackle guarded Mul-T-Lock attached to a cheap, low-grade steel hasp, I wonder just how much of a deterrent said lock is, esp when the hasp could easily be cut and the lock tossed… It’s pretty scary to see all the false sense of security these locks present their owners, b/c they aren’t aware of what a cheap hasp, chain, hinge or braided cable presents to a clever trouble maker.

Any padlock suggestions would be very welcomed, esp $30-50 range.

***Grammar/punctuation edit!***

[digital_blue]

4) raimundo: Gum, haha… Yeah the guy was an older fellow, prob about +50’s

Hear that Ray? He was a pretty old guy.

db

[zeke79]

Hehehehe, I guess you are an old guy too Ray .

[raimundo]

I was left out in the weather, Im not as old as I look. there are copies of the abloy including no name, and the Baton brand, the ESP brand, that I have seen, the weakness of the abloy is not NDE, its DE, the face of the lock is often brass and can be cut away with a large drill if its not put under armor, I'll bet our finnish members see the abloy used in high security applications with an armor plate in front of the keyhole, I don't know of any anti drill pins in the multi lock either. What the old guy was probably thinking was that you would find a flaw in the multilock, and tell everybody on campus, undercuttting his sales pitch, and making him have to get a new commercial relationship with medeco or someone. Medeco with the anti drill features is very good against DE, except for those thinshackle padlocks. The thinshackle padlocks need a shackle shroud, such as is common in south america. I never understood why these were not manufactured here.
If you go looking for a flaw in the medeco, after you investigate the falle foil trick, get access to an installed multilock and look over the boltworks as well, sometimes the flaw is not in the cylinder, but in the boltworks. or in the strike hole. then start a locksports group on campus specializing in this guys multilocks.

[globallockytoo]

I Know...old post rehash...blah blah blah...

IMHO Master manufacture the Pro Series padlock range. They have a enclosed shackle version which seels for around US$80.00 I think.

Combine the Master Pro with a Bilock High-Security restricted cylinder and you get a formidable enemy for potential thieves.

The Bilock cylinder is very economical in comparisson to Protec or MulTLock and is of sufficient quality to resist bumping or picking....

Your property sounds very valuable to you...Abloy Protec is a great product...no question there....MulTLock...is also a useful product however in terms of pick/bump resistance value...it does not compare with Protec or Bilock....IMHO...

[EricM]

I'm going to take a stab at this establishment, though not with pin point accuracy of course to save the ingnorant. Is it the lock shop on Penn campus right next to the 24 hour Philly Diner?

Because I've been to that one, and I had a very nice 6 am before the shop was open talk with the main lockie, and he as with any lockie is usually surprised as hell that anyone outside the trade knows more than kwikset in the home depot.

PM me if you feel more comfortable with that

-Eric "Leïto"

[EricM]

I'm going to take a stab at this establishment, though not with pin point accuracy of course to save the ingnorant.
-Eric "Leïto"

Hah, guess I'm the ingnorant one

Wish this forum had spell checker or the ability to edit posts within a short time period.

[Bud Wiser]

Well I may not be experienced here concerning locks (yet), but I am a master sales person! I train sales people. This guy was not, I repeat, NOT a sales person. Did he sell you? Did he impress you at all?

A true sales person never tries to discredit competitors, it's not so much a honor among thieves thing as it is a psychological thing! All that accomplishes usually is what you felt. A better approach would have been some thing like this...

"Yes Abloy locks are great locks indeed, but let me show you why I think "fill in the blank" would be better for you.."

In the process always drawing comparisons in a respectful manor when possible. focusing on *cost* and *effectiveness*

By the time he finished his presentation, you would not have felt stupid for liking Abloy, but would have been persuaded to believe you didn't need a Abloy because it simply was not cost effective, and there was a better alternative.

Another thing about sales is the customer is always right, never try to make the customer look foolish! You may win the argument, but loose a sale!

I called our leading locksmith company in my city and asked if they carry abloy. He said yes of course and could service it for me too but would like the opportunity to show me other alternatives too! WOW, now thats good salesmanship

[EricM]

I agree on what is appropriate for a sales person and the proper techniques they should and should not use.
Though isn't there a possibility that there is such a thing as a *bad sales person*?

Just putting it out there.