to Medeco or not/

[Richard Medway]

Dear Group,
I am responsible for security for a significant non-profit organisation. Once we learned about lock-bumping, we've been thinking of changing over to Medeco locks , until we heard/saw a medeco lock being bumped/picked a week ago.
we have also been looking at the Bi-lock system, and wondered of you professionals have opinions on this. Talking to two local locksmiths, including my local Medeco dealer, it was obvious that they were more interested in moving their stock than my security problems. I can understand this, but only up to a point...
Any ideas?
Richard Medway Los Angeles

[zeke79]

Bilock or abloy. Medeco has issues which are now obvious. I have picked the 5 pin biaxial system on video and also bumped medeco on video long ago. If I had medeco on my house I wouldnt change them, but I had kwikset titan so I went with abloy protec.

[Eyes_Only]

No lock will ever come even close to 99% pick or bypass proof. The world of locks and physical security has become just like that of the digital world, constantly needing upgrades and the end user required to keep abreast of the newest security systems and flaws thanks to the internet.

I agree with zeke on going with abloy or bilock. But remember that sooner or later these locks will probably compromised when an secret design flaw or new opening tool or technique is exposed and introduced in the future.

I know it's more work but thats the way things are these days.

[freakparade3]

One definate advantage of going with Bilock is you will have the coolest looking key out of all your friends.

[zeke79]

Good point eyes but keep in mind that the disklock decoding system is still not even available to locksmiths (government agencies only) and there is nothing out there for the exec system as far as I know.

The protec will be secure for many years to come in my opinion and I wouldnt think twice to recommend it or bilock to a loved one.

[nothumbs]

Before I would spend a dime on new locks I would first evaluate the complete perimeter security environment. I sit on the board of a non-profit and know that non-profit dollars are finite. There may be other more important security investments to make before you change out the locks. While bumping is one form of non-destructive entry, there are others, as well as destructive entry (and no, no discussion of them here).

You might also consider an SFIC-based lock as a less expensive alternative.

[globallockytoo]

I have to agree with Zeke. Abloy Protec are probably the best (bump proof and virtually pick proof).

Bilock are a very competitively priced option and include the advantage of IC core functionality aside from the benefits that they will retro fit in virtually all existing hardware lines.

Protec can be expensive and often hardware needs to be modified to allow the cylinders to seat correctly. This can also be a problem when sourcing replacement parts.

Both Abloy Protec and Bilock offer the advantage that keys cannot be duplicated....they must be cut as an original, eliminating the chance that key duplicators might have with Medeco and others. Wal-Mart have now got machinery to be able to produce high security keys including Auto.

If cost is a motivating factor, Bilock are significantly more competitively priced than Protec.

I do believe Protec keys are guaranteed for life (conditions apply).
Bilock keys are available with your choice of about 9000 color combinations. Protec uses color coded inserts in their keys. (about 15 colors).

Bilock also produce key heads tailored to the visually impaired.

Bilock make cylinders to retrofit almost all hardware lines and most of the cylinders for the USA market are manufactured in Connecticut.

There are far fewer Bilock dealers than Abloy, Medeco, Primus or Mul-t-lock. This is an advantage in that less people will be able to work on the product offering more security appeal because it is more specialised.

[maintenanceguy]

I've never seen your building but I'm sure that the weakest link in your security is not your locksets.

Medeco can be picked, but I doubt that your friendly neighborhood thief can do it. But they probably can't or won't pick your existing locks either. There are so many other, faster and easier ways inside.

If my concern was physical security of a door, I'd be more concerned with a door and lock's resistance to physical attack (pry-bars, kicking, etc.) than with picking resistance.

In my opinion, the best security device today is a burglar alarm. The second best is security cameras and a recorder. Locks only keep honest people out.

[globallockytoo]

I've never seen your building but I'm sure that the weakest link in your security is not your locksets.

Medeco can be picked, but I doubt that your friendly neighborhood thief can do it. But they probably can't or won't pick your existing locks either. There are so many other, faster and easier ways inside.

If my concern was physical security of a door, I'd be more concerned with a door and lock's resistance to physical attack (pry-bars, kicking, etc.) than with picking resistance.

In my opinion, the best security device today is a burglar alarm. The second best is security cameras and a recorder. Locks only keep honest people out.

It gets really irritating when people claim that locks are not a security device and alarms are. Alarms ARE NOT any kind of security device. They are a means to create a noise and hence "alarm" someone that something is happening. They do NOT and never have or will provide any form of physical protection in any way or method.

This guy really annoys me with this really innapropriate type of comment. How can you claim to know what this gentlemans motivations are? Perhaps he is looking for key control combined with a "first line" defense product.

Your comment about alarms is further eroded in your post by saying that he should seek products designed at shielding against prybar or kick entry.
Do you even know what you are talking about? This forum is for those interested in locks, keys and physical security devices. I am sure if you want, you can find suitable forums for the discussion of alarms.

If this gentleman wanted to spend the squillions required for electronic alarm protection why would he ask the question in a lock and lockpicking forum....go and crawl back into your hole!

[Trip Doctor]

It gets really irritating when people claim that locks are not a security device

If you'll look back at maintenanceguy's post, I don't think he ever said that.

They are a means to create a noise and hence "alarm" someone that something is happening.

Yes, like the local police.

Dear Group,
I am responsible for security for a significant non-profit organisation.
Richard Medway Los Angeles

How can you claim to know what this gentlemans motivations are?

How can you?
As far as his post goes his motivations are security. Alarms are a device used for security (perhaps not physical security, but still security). Maintenanceguy might have not answered the main question Richard Medway had about Medeccos or such locks, he at least offered some reasonable insight.
He never suggested that the posts giving opinions about Abloys and Bilocks were wrong. Rather than confirming them for the 7th time, he just gave an opinion/idea from a different prespective.



Off Topic:
Richard, I just came back from vacation in LA .

[globallockytoo]

Alarms are not used for security. They are used to warn of security issues.
They do not protect. They inform.
The gentleman asked questions about locks and keys not alarms.
The opinions sought were about key systems not alarms or prybar or kicking protections.

the gentlemans motivations were to explore opinions about key systems, which an normal person might presume to be for security against picking/bumping and key control.

His question was directly aimed at this discussion not the opinions about whether locks are appropriate or not.

[maintenanceguy]

I'm no expert on physical security but I am the maintenance supervisor for a fairly large city school district. A lot of what I do involves security of our buildings.

We have vandalism and/or breakins nearly weekly. We probably have a dozen real break-ins each year where it's not just some kid throwing a rock through a window. Some are just kids doing damage, others have involved the theft of computer or office equipment.

I've never once seen a break-in where the lock was the way in. We use Yale cylindars all keyed to several mastersand submasters, no special security pins or other deterants. These could be picked by a novice in less than a minute. The never are.

Windows are broken, doors are kicked in or pryed open, roof hatches are pryed up. we've even had two individuals un-bolt the combustion air intake vents to a boiler room. In my experience, the week link is not the lock.

Our buildings are usually empty from about 11:00 when our night custodian's leave until around 6:00 am when the day shift arrives. That's a lot of hours for someone to do damage.

Since I have so many points of vulnerability and never enough money to secure them all, I need to know when someone has broken in. More importantly, I need the local police to know. That's exactly what our alarms systems do.

We catch most of the people doing break-ins because our building alarms are monitored and the police are on-site within minutes of the break-in and because we have invested a lot of money in the past few years in cameras and recorders.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that alarms are not used for security. And I stand by my statement that locks only keep honest people out.

[maintenanceguy]

I'm no expert on physical security but I am the maintenance supervisor for a fairly large city school district. A lot of what I do involves security of our buildings.

We have vandalism and/or breakins nearly weekly. We probably have a dozen real break-ins each year where it's not just some kid throwing a rock through a window. Some are just kids doing damage, others have involved the theft of computer or office equipment.

I've never once seen a break-in where the lock was the way in. We use Yale cylindars all keyed to several mastersand submasters, no special security pins or other deterants. These could be picked by a novice in less than a minute. The never are.

Windows are broken, doors are kicked in or pryed open, roof hatches are pryed up. we've even had two individuals un-bolt the combustion air intake vents to a boiler room. In my experience, the week link is not the lock.

Our buildings are usually empty from about 11:00 when our night custodian's leave until around 6:00 am when the day shift arrives. That's a lot of hours for someone to do damage.

Since I have so many points of vulnerability and never enough money to secure them all, I need to know when someone has broken in. More importantly, I need the local police to know. That's exactly what our alarms systems do.

We catch most of the people doing break-ins because our building alarms are monitored and the police are on-site within minutes of the break-in and because we have invested a lot of money in the past few years in cameras and recorders.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that alarms are not used for security. And I stand by my statement that locks only keep honest people out.

[freakparade3]

And I stand by my statement that locks only keep honest people out.

I totally agree with this statement. The bottom line is, if someone wants in bad enough they WILL find a way in.

[RangerF150]

Alarms ARE NOT any kind of security device.

Is an alarm not a deterrent? Is a lock not a deterrent also?
Are security cameras not a deterrent ?

Is the idea of security to deter the potential criminal and make him inclined to go elsewhere ?

Hence one uses locks, alarms, cameras and any "security" device to deter the potential criminal.

Just my two cents