Stronger than any deadbolt?!

[paule]

Have you guys heard about [crummy lock brand]? It claims to be stronger than any deadbolt door lock. I just started working for them and I wanted to see what professional locksmiths and lock pickers have to say about it.

Check it out and let me know your thoughts --> [spam removed]

[Legion303 edit for spam; leaving post because of the comments]

[jpb06080]

seems pretty interesteing. I'm not really sure I'd spend 180$ on it though. For 180, you could get a bolt that is actually high security. Is there any drill protection? Also, does the lock actually improve pick resistance? Bump resistance is obviously taken into account, but the website doesnt say much about how the actual mechanism works.

The way it resists physical damage was really impressive in that video however. Of course it seems to be pretty contingent upon having a really strong door, because otherwise the wood will split and unless you had a double cylinder, it wouldn't really matter that the bolt is intact.

[Safety0ff]

Sounds like spam, anyways, what type of lock is it?
Is there a breakdown of the actual lock?

If I had to guess I would guess that the lock is a normal pin tumbler with some anti-bump pins, anyways, would love to hear the details.

1) It's bump-proof. There is a "lock out" button that, when pressed, renders any key useless - whether it is a fake key or the real deal. The lock out button is pressed from inside the home.

2) It's kick-proof. The Ultimate Lock is actually a complete locking system where the deadbolt works with patented technology to increase the strength of the deadbolt lock as the door is being kicked in. The Ultimate Lock resists 20 to 40 times a standard deadbolt lock depending on the model you invest in.

3) It's pick-proof. The Ultimate Lock is extremely difficult to pick when the "lock out" button is deactivated. However, when it is activated, a burglar cannot successfully pick and unlock your door.

You screwed up #1, first you say it's bump proof then you talk about the override button, well is it bump proof or is it not?! Sounds like #3 also depends on the override.

On the technical drawing you call the cylinder "high security," but I don't see which high security standard it complies to, and the keys in the picture don't suggest high security. (Don't think I didn't notice "Occupation: Marketing Director" in your profile.)

Also, what's up with the screws in that drawing ? Are they inserted at a weird angle?

With a $219 price point, why would someone choose this over a high security lock? (Medeco, Schlage Primus, Mul-t-lock, etc) Note: When I say high security, I mean conforms to a high security standard.

There's no mention of the grade of the hardware.

Will the lock resist forced entry without the lockout + overide engaged?

Ten year limited waranty? Doesn't Schlage give lifetime mechanical waranty?

P.S. Unless it's some sort of weird wafer lock, looks like the key is upside down in your diagram. That as well as the screws make that picture look bad.

[Safety0ff]

Is there any drill protection?

I missed that point, good one.

[Squelchtone]

Have you guys heard about "The Ultimate Lock?" It claims to be stronger than any deadbolt door lock. I just started working for them and I wanted to see what professional locksmiths and lock pickers have to say about it.

Just a few things.. your sig unfortunately is not allowed to advertise a commercial product, but I know where you're coming from just saying hey, here's my new lock, check it out.

In looking over the diagram, I see several things that may be weak points.

The adjustable deadbolt is a bad idea. I know its convenient to the end user, but the more complicated and adjustable that part of the lock is, the weaker it is it because it is no longer made of a long continuous piece of metal and thus prone to failure during a physical attack. You should make and sell 2 seperate deadbolt mechanisms and mark the boxes with either 2 3/8 or 2 3/4 backset.

In the diagram the cylinder cone looks like it is stamped and not a solid piece of metal that has been drilled or milled to accept the lock cylinder. This may be a limitation of the drawing and the lock may look somewhat different in person, but that cone should be a thick solid piece that spins freely during a wrenching attack.

As locksport pickers, we are very interested in lock cylinder mechanisms, and I'm sure we're all curious to find out what key, keyway, and pin system you are using in your lock. Is it an off the shelf lock cylinder made by one of the known lock manufacturers, or did you make your own? As to the bump proofness and pickability of said lock, I welcome you to send me a PM to arrange for TOOOL Boston to receive one of your locks and our members will gladly perform a full set of surreptitious entry attacks and bypass method tests on the sample lock you provide.


Couple more questions for you:

1) It's bump-proof. There is a "lock out" button that, when pressed, renders any key useless - whether it is a fake key or the real deal. The lock out button is pressed from inside the home.

Is the lock bump proof when the person goes to work and cant press the lock out button on the inside of the house?

3) It's pick-proof. The Ultimate Lock is extremely difficult to pick when the "lock out" button is deactivated. However, when it is activated, a burglar cannot successfully pick and unlock your door.

With the button pressed, can the lock be picked, and plug rotated, it just doesnt interact with the tailpiece? Or does the lock out button jam stop the gearing from moving thus not allowing for the plug to rotate or the bolt to retract?

Thanks for prompt reply,

Squelchtone

TOOOL Boston

[Safety0ff]

One more question, from the inside, does the knob only action the lockout mechanism or throw bolt as well? I gather the override only block the lockout mechanism.

[paule]

Hi safetyoff and jpb,

Those are really great questions and observations. I can answer some of your questions, but will have to get back to you on some of the more technical questions.

I'm not trying to hide my association with the Ultimate Lock. I am just doing some market research and you guys have seriously impressed me. I do not know much about deadbolts- I'm just the marketing guy. I want to learn about what matters in a lock so we can continue to improve the product and answer any questions that I may not have thought of addressing.

Before I go into responding to the specific questions let me explain that the main feature of this lock is the "lock-out" button. When engaged (from the inside) the lock in indeed bump proof, pick proof, and kick proof.

I am creating a list of my responses so I know which ones to get back to: Let me know if I need to clarify any points.

- Drill protection?
Yes, when the "lock out" mode is engaged.

- What type of lock
If you mean what kind of keyway- it's a schlage keyway. I actually got mine rekeyed today so I can use the same key for it.

- Type of tumbler:
It is a six pin security lock

- "You screwed up #1"
I will make this description more clear- thanks!
It is bump proof when the lockout button is engaged.

- Why is it a high security lock?
Anything 6-pin or over is considered high security- standard locks are 5-pin

- Not sure what you mean by the key does not suggest high security- what would make the key high security?

- Noticed that I am a "Marketing Director"
Doesn't mean I am out to get anyone. I want to seriously bring value this industry and to be able to communicate our product clearly and effectively. You guys have asked some tough questions and I love it! Thanks!!!

- What's up with the screws in the drawing (www (dot) theultimatelock (dot) com/diagram/diagram.html)
They are on an angle to show you that they are longer than the average screw. The screws penetrate further into the door frame and make it more difficult to kick-in. I'll consider having our designer redraw it if you think it's necessary

- No mention of lock grade
Great point. I will add this. I beleive it exceeds ANSI Grade 1 standards, but I will get back to you on this one.

- will the lock resist forced entry without the lockout mode engaged?
It will certainly resist entry- it's a good lock. However, it will not be kick proof as it is when the lockout mode is engaged.

- 10 year warranty
I thought that was pretty good, but I guess I will have to talk to our team to see if we can make it lifetime. Thanks for the suggestion.

- I will have our designer turn the key right side up- thanks!
That diagram was just completed less than a week ago- it's not up on our website yet so.... nice catch.

[paule]

Safetyoff- please clarify- I'm not sure what you are asking. Perhaps I answered your question in my last post.

[cheesehead]

- Why is it a high security lock?
Anything 6-pin or over is considered high security- standard locks are 5-pin

i disagree.

[Safety0ff]

- Why is it a high security lock?
Anything 6-pin or over is considered high security- standard locks are 5-pin
- Not sure what you mean by the key does not suggest high security- what would make the key high security?

Whoops, at that point I was trying to figure out whether the lock cylinder is what "we" would consider high security.

- Noticed that I am a "Marketing Director"
Doesn't mean I am out to get anyone. I want to seriously bring value this industry and to be able to communicate our product clearly and effectively. You guys have asked some tough questions and I love it! Thanks!!!

Sorry that I was rude, I shouldn't have assumed you were on the team who made the diagram. My apologies. (I'm a little tired.)

- What's up with the screws in the drawing (web link)
They are on an angle to show you that they are longer than the average screw. The screws penetrate further into the door frame and make it more difficult to kick-in. I'll consider having our designer redraw it if you think it's necessary

From what I can see, they're coming out at the wrong angle.

One more question, from the inside, does the knob only action the lockout mechanism or throw bolt as well? I gather the override only block the lockout mechanism.

What I mean is, that for example, you come home after work, enter your house, when you turn the knob on the inside, does it throw both the bolt and the lockout latch? Also, does the override block the tail piece of the lock cylinder?

[n2oah]

- What type of lock
If you mean what kind of keyway- it's a schlage keyway. I actually got mine rekeyed today so I can use the same key for it.

- Type of tumbler:
It is a six pin security lock

- Why is it a high security lock?
Anything 6-pin or over is considered high security- standard locks are 5-pin

- Not sure what you mean by the key does not suggest high security- what would make the key high security?

Sadly, marketing guy, you are mistaken. A six pin Schlage is NOT high security, not even anywhere near high security. Here, we consider a six-pin Schlage knockoff to be basic security (I'm assuming you don't get cylinders directly from Schlage, because that might actually make your product decent).
When we refer to a "high-security" key, we mean that the key has some measure against unlawful key duplication, like a restricted keyway, or an ownership card. Your lock, which I'm guessing takes an SC4 blank, is very easy to copy unlawfully.

[n2oah]

As mention in IRC, this lock only protects to it's maximum ability when you're inside the house. For the price of your lock, you'd be much better off buying a Medeco captive key deadbolt.

[paule]

Hi n2oah,

I'm learning so much from you guys- I hope these tough questions keep coming.

I am asking out of ignorance so please forgive me...

Even though a six pin schlage security lock is not considered "high security" what about the fact that it has a lockout button. When this button is engaged the keyway and everything dealing with the cylinder portion of the lock is essentially inaccessible/blocked/turned off. The security is then provided by the deadbolt portion of the lock.

Thoughts?

[nothumbs]

The lockout button, if I understand correctly, can only be engaged when someone is on the 'inside' of the door protected by this lock. There are much cheaper ways to provide that protection. I'd much prefer a lock that offers the same level of protection for my home/business regardless of whether I'm in it or not.

[paule]

Hi nothumbs,


Just to be clear, the Ultimate Lock is still kick resistant without the "lock-out" mode engaged. It's just not pick or bump proof when the button has not been engaged from the inside of the home.