Computer-aided sight recognition of key bitting!

[Engineer]

Has anyone else seen this article?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 181606.htm

I know sight-reading a key can be done, but automating it in effect, so you can get useable pictures from a camera phone, or OVER 200 FEET AWAY from the roof a building with only a 5" telephoto lens is a bit alarming.

For those of us who have a locksmithing business, this might actually be wuite useful. Imagine setting a key down under a camera and putting a blank in the machine. The computer would cut the key to it's ORIGINAL specifications, no more problems of trying to duplicate a key that is worn.

On the other hand, if programs like this became freely available, then keeping your keys out of sight even when opening doors will become essential.

[lunchb0x]

I Read this the other day on another forum, looks like it would be really cool but I don't see how a locksmith would really use it, say if you have a customer with their keys locked inside their car and you could clearly see the key you should be able to cut the key by looking at it, though this program could take some of the guess work out of it.

Here is some more on it.


http://vision.ucsd.edu/~blaxton/sneakey.html

[Buggs41]

So they can duplicate the cuts on the key, but can they also get the correct warding of the keyway? A key is no good if it won't fit into the lock.

[datagram]

So they can duplicate the cuts on the key, but can they also get the correct warding of the keyway? A key is no good if it won't fit into the lock.

The easy entrie can make key blanks based on a photo. The two combined should be able to fully reproduce a key via photograph.

dg

[lunchb0x]

from the picture you could probably get a rough idea of what the profile is, from the shape of the head of the key and the groves on the one side you can see.

[MacGnG1]

posted a few days ago: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=42928

news article is new tho

[straightpick]

They decoded a Kwikset key? A blind man could do that by feel. How about something that doesn't have a give away clue like Kwiksets 3 hole head? Like a neuter bow blank, where the head shape is the same for all keyways. Or a multiplex system keyblank? Looks impressive, but so did the great OZ before Toto pulled the curtain back.

[ridinplugspinnaz]

They decoded a Kwikset key? A blind man could do that by feel. How about something that doesn't have a give away clue like Kwiksets 3 hole head? Like a neuter bow blank, where the head shape is the same for all keyways. Or a multiplex system keyblank? Looks impressive, but so did the great OZ before Toto pulled the curtain back.

Haha, love that Wizard of OZ analogy... with respect to neuter bow keys though, I'd be willing to bet that a few good macro shots of the key would reveal enough information to determine the vast majority of keys, provided that a good reference database existed. For the most part, that should be trivial for a computer to do -- either calculate CAD / CAM reference designs for the blanks so that you can determine warding angles and relative size ratios, or perhaps do it the hard way and run some blanks under a profilometer to determine the geometry that way.

Either way, once the computer system has enough data in its catalog about the blanks, you probably don't even need to know the measurement scale of the picture of the key in order to resolve its make/model, because all of the warding measurements can be defined by relative ratios, and scaled appropriately to measurements made from the picture of the key. In fact, with neuter bow keys, absolute scale may be undesirable, because the length of the bow will likely be different from that of the OEM-shaped blank. At any rate, determining the key from a picture, even a neuter bow key, is going to be purely a function of how good your reference data is. The calculations themselves should be pretty trivial for a computer vision system to flesh out.

[MacGnG1]

i think this is another example of how INSECURE everyday door lock are. and hopefully people will goto their local locksmith and ask for a higher security lock on their front door

[datagram]

i think this is another example of how INSECURE everyday door lock are. and hopefully people will goto their local locksmith and ask for a higher security lock on their front door

I disagree; anyone who goes through the time, money, and effort to enter a home/building via identifying a person, their key, and the lock it goes to is much more than any normal burglar is willing/able to do. Security in most respects is just a time limit, so buying a better lock solves nothing for residential homes where the windows or door itself can just be easily busted to allow access.

To use this method for entry shows extreme patience and skill - something most criminals do not have. In addition, use of this method to open a residential home is such a small risk that it is probably not worth it for the majority of homes.

dg

[straightpick]

with respect to neuter bow keys though, I'd be willing to bet that a few good macro shots of the key would reveal enough information to determine the vast majority of keys, provided that a good reference database existed. For the most part, that should be trivial for a computer to do -- either calculate CAD / CAM reference designs for the blanks so that you can determine warding angles and relative size ratios, or perhaps do it the hard way and run some blanks under a profilometer to determine the geometry that way.

Well, first of all, a macro (closeup) of a key and a shot from 150 feet away are not going to reveal the same information. Ever work with multiplex keyways? The differences in the millings are so minute I have trouble distinguishing them when I have the blanks in my hand. Plus there are two sides of a key. You will probably only see one side with the camera, which will leave a lot of guesswork as to what the other side might be. This article is just one of those hysteria inducing pieces that was done under somewhat controlled conditions to show that it COULD be possible to read a key this way. Somewhat akin to saying you could be struck by lightning. People ARE struck by lightning, but how many people ARE NOT struck by lightning? As was said before, who is going to go through that much trouble to gain entrance someplace when there are so many easier ways to do so?

[Engineer]

As I understand it, the computer-aided bit comes from a cross-referencing of the bitting depths and spaces, to a program that "rotates" the key, so even if you can only get a picture of it from an odd angle, as long as the teeth can be seen, the computer sorts out the variations due to perspective in the x,y & z - axis. It then identifies the keyway (not sure how, perhaps they are not saying?).

From that it produces a most-likely key. To my way of thinking, the problem might be that it might produce a key where all the cutting depths are one too high, or one too low, depending on the quality of the picture.

Most of us could probably cut a key if we can see it directly from the side, but this thing can work out keys from most angles.

What is alarming to me, is that it takes the skill and experience out of key reading. Years of experience count for nothing when anyone can point a camera roughly at a key and insert a blank into a machine. The idea that you can cut keys to original specs (even if you are presented with a worn key for duplication) means it might find a place in stores who dupe keys for a couple of $$. No training needed - Stick key under camera, computer tells customer to insert blank key type #123 into a machine like an ATM machine and it spits out a completed key.

Other uses for it are covert. Imagine it as a web application for example? Submit a photo (even a bad one from a camera phone) taken from almost any angle and the web page tells you the blank to use and it's code. Great for students to have a bit of fun with, but can you image other uses it might get put to?

[straightpick]

Still think it's a crock. Some of your better locks have a depth variation of twelve and a half thousandths between cuts. You would need the Hubble telescope to define that. Another point to ponder. Sargent has (in the catalog I have) 62 different 6 pin keyblanks. They use the same depths and spacings. And they are going to pick the correct blank from 200' away? But I see a potential business venture in this! I have developed a product called the "Key Sock", a small cloth sack with an elastic top that you put your key in to prevent covert sighting of your keys! We'll start out with the basic model, then as it catches on we'll add on team logos, cartoon characters, designer models, etc. Looking for financial backers, $5000.00 and you're in! All rights reserved.

[lunchb0x]

So you wouldn't have to worry about the exact key blank you could cut the key out on a bit of plastic so you can make it fit into the profile and lift the pins to the correct height, so I guess you could make a working key to gain entry.

[WOT]

Has anyone else seen this article?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 181606.htm

I know sight-reading a key can be done, but automating it in effect, so you can get useable pictures from a camera phone, or OVER 200 FEET AWAY from the roof a building with only a 5" telephoto lens is a bit alarming.

For those of us who have a locksmithing business, this might actually be wuite useful. Imagine setting a key down under a camera and putting a blank in the machine. The computer would cut the key to it's ORIGINAL specifications, no more problems of trying to duplicate a key that is worn.

On the other hand, if programs like this became freely available, then keeping your keys out of sight even when opening doors will become essential.

If people cared... they wouldn't be using Kwikcrap in the first place.