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Recently acquired lock

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Recently acquired lock

Postby skylerorlando » 9 Jul 2009 16:44

I'm not entirely sure whether this is a "high-security" lock that's not to be mentioned in the general forums or not, but I figured I would post and ask. Pictures attached, taken with my cell phone, sorry. :)

Judging from the name on the face--"Tigon"--and the fact that it doesn't show up on Google(only a few lookalikes from a different company), I'm inclined to suspect that it may be of a Chinese or some other lesser-quality origin. The fact that I found it in a market in Peru for about $2 US doesn't seem to lend to its credibility either. :)

However, it is a different kind of lock, I must admit. Inside, there seem to be seven separate discs stacked in series, each with an identical rectangular slot cut to the dimensions of the key. When the key is turned, the angled cuts in the key result in some of the discs not turning as far as others; when all the discs are turned to about 90 degrees and are properly aligned, the key will turn the rest of the way and open the lock.

With the aid of a bent paperclip I was able to reproduce the approximate layout of the discs when the proper key is inserted. At that point, rotating the fourth disc from the front seemed to unlock the rest of the mechanism.

What I found to be interesting was that without the key, the discs rotate freely from a horizontal resting position to a vertical position with or without the key. Then, though, they are blocked from moving further unless the key is turning them, and the discs are lined up. If this is the case, then they continue turning until they are lying 180 degrees from what they were--at which point the key cannot be removed. It is necessary to first turn the key back to the locked position before removing it. The padlock doesn't appear to have any springs, and it is possible to lock it open.

As I said, I've managed to open it, but not actually pick it. I haven't yet identified a weakness in the design that allows one to open it without knowing the combination. (As an aside, there seem to be three possible cuts on the key, resulting in 3^7 or 2187 possible combinations.) I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with this kind of lock--first off, was it OK to post it here, and secondly, what are its weaknesses(if any)? I'm thinking perhaps if I applied tension to that fourth disc, it might cause the other discs to "set" properly, but I don't know...

Thanks!
You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby ToolyMcgee » 9 Jul 2009 16:56

Oooo shiny. I have a few just like it that say EXTRA PLUS (insert company name) then TOP SECURITY. They are rear tensioning locks to the best of my knowledge. Though I don't believe I have a Tigon. Anyway, open discussion of the picking techniques is advanced. Your $2 lock is super high security :lol: Not a cake walk, but no abloy.

Here is a thread I found really quick. Google search is your pal. I am sure there are more.
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=31630

-Tooly
*blank*
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby skylerorlando » 9 Jul 2009 17:02

Ah, okay. Funny, I tried both Google search and searching the forum itself, but didn't see that thread... oh well.

I guess if I do figure out how to pick it, I'll have to keep that knowledge to myself. How sad. :D
You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby ToolyMcgee » 9 Jul 2009 17:54

They are actually kinda tough ND. I had to dig one out to check my post, and it seems this one tensions from the 4th disk like you mentioned. I'll have to check, but it seems like I had one of these where it was the rear disk. Hmmm.

You don't have to keep the knowledge to yourself, you just can't blurt it out on the open forum so people can search it on google, that's all. Google search was... Tigon site:lockpicking101.com
Good luck

-Tooly
*blank*
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby Jaakko » 12 Jul 2009 7:34

I eat those locks for breakfast :P They are really quite easy to pick, 1-3 minutes approximately with the right tool.

And the cheap versions tension from the last and/or first disc.
Image
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby skylerorlando » 12 Jul 2009 19:13

Jaakko wrote:I eat those locks for breakfast :P They are really quite easy to pick, 1-3 minutes approximately with the right tool.

And the cheap versions tension from the last and/or first disc.


Maybe this is an expensive cheap version. I'm pretty sure it's tensioning on the fourth disc.

I don't have a "right tool", I'm experimenting with some various things I have around the house. ;)
You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby skylerorlando » 12 Jul 2009 19:40

Out of curiosity, is this a disc detainer lock? Or is that something else?
You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby mh » 12 Jul 2009 23:33

skylerorlando wrote:Out of curiosity, is this a disc detainer lock? Or is that something else?

technically, I thing "rotating-disk"-detainer or -tumbler would be even more specific, because some folks also call wafers that move laterally "disks", ...
but: yes, that's one ;)
"The techs discovered that German locks were particularly difficult" - Robert Wallace, H. Keith Melton w. Henry R. Schlesinger, Spycraft: The secret history of the CIA's spytechs from communism to Al-Qaeda (New York: Dutton, 2008), p. 210
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby Jaakko » 13 Jul 2009 2:31

Yep, rotating disc detainer lock is pretty accurate :)

Have to ask, but how do you know for sure it is the 4th disc that tensions? The key seems to have uncut portions all over it and anyone of them could be it.
Image
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby skylerorlando » 13 Jul 2009 6:55

Jaakko wrote:Have to ask, but how do you know for sure it is the 4th disc that tensions? The key seems to have uncut portions all over it and anyone of them could be it.


True. But, when I was opening it with a paperclip by copying the notch configuration onto the discs, it opened only when I turned the fourth disc. I haven't gotten it to open with any of the other discs corresponding to an uncut notch yet, despite my efforts. It's possible that any of them would open it, and it's just chance that I always bump the fourth after getting everything lined up; I haven't played with it long enough to find out yet.
You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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Re: Recently acquired lock

Postby raimundo » 13 Jul 2009 8:44

Of course Jaakkos the disclock expert, but to me, it seems that the lock does not requrie a redesign of any part to place the turning disc anywhere in the stack.

The factory that makes these could stack that disc whereever and it would still work to a properly cut key.

Nothing I can understand with present knowlege would require that the turning disc be in any particular position, but it would be stronger if it were deep in the lock close to the bottom of the disc can. This is because first disc turning is far from the bottom of the can and the edge of the can is split, hard turning of this first disc could cause the can/cylinder that holds the disc pack could be forced to spread open. when this happens, it will no longer turn the can properly.
maybe something like that caused my tigon to stop being pickable, while still opening with a key.
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