impressioning on a master keyed lock

[Rickthepick]

Master key suites are something iv never really dabbled in.

Am i right in thinking the higher ranking key generally uses the higher sheer lines?

This would mean you wouldnt be able to impression the grand master as you'd always hit the lowest rank key profile first.

Is there a way to determine which chambers contain the master pins so that you can overfile that/those cuts and then impression for the master profile

still with me?

[MacGyver101]

It's considered a "best practice" to make it so that your lower-level keys can't be made into "higher-priviledge" keys by filing them down -- so you are correct that, in many master-keyed cylinders, the top-level master key will have shallower cuts than lower-order keys.

Having said that, though, it's not guaranteed that every master cut will be shallower... and there isn't a reliable, general way of locating all of the master wafers (that I'm aware of, anyhow) without disassembling the lock.

suppose, if you knew both one key cut and that the height of the driver pins was constant, you could somehow measure the pinstacks by overlifting them -- but you're probably much faster to just impression the lock, open it and then disassemble it. (Although, even then, you'd be left doing a lot of guessing if it was part of a multi-level masterkey system.)

[yng_pick]

When we set up master systems, we try to make sure the master key has in at least one position the highest cut of that keyway, and in another the lowest.

Here is a random example

Master- 769650

The lower shearline, for pin tumblers at least, is very often not for just the master or change, and can even be an used change.

Change-585650

Lower shearline would be 585650, while the highest would be 789650. Both are non intended changes, but neither are a master.

[Rickthepick]

All dependant on the design of the suite then.

i might try it out on one of those cheap SKS off the shelf master keyed locks... if i can get a few blanks

cheers

[Wizer]

SKS sells blanks to their locks too.
I´ve got one of those masterkeyed locks, VERY easy to pick.

[Rickthepick]

SKS sells blanks to their locks too.
I´ve got one of those masterkeyed locks, VERY easy to pick.

yeah haha but at that price id expect nothing more. il see if i can get some blanks with my next order

[Evan]

Master key suites are something iv never really dabbled in.

Am i right in thinking the higher ranking key generally uses the higher sheer lines?

This would mean you wouldnt be able to impression the grand master as you'd always hit the lowest rank key profile first.

Is there a way to determine which chambers contain the master pins so that you can overfile that/those cuts and then impression for the master profile

still with me?

Hey Rickthepick:

No, you are not correct with your suppositions about how master keying systems are designed... When you impression a masterkeyed lock you would be impressioning the lock to the bottom pin depth in each chamber... You should read up on masterkeying by purchasing a book on the subject...

To answer your last question, yes, after you impression a key to the lock you would disassemble it and carefully remove and measure any upper pins with a caliper... That will indicate which bitting depths are pinned to which chambers in the lock -- decoding which bitting cuts belong to which key in the system is not something that you would be able to do without access to the lock's change key or experimentation with cutting some keys and trying them in other locks within the same master key system...

~~ Evan

[MacGyver101]

No, you are not correct with your suppositions about how master keying systems are designed [...] You should read up on masterkeying by purchasing a book on the subject...

Or he could ask a simple question here, which he did.

[raimundo]

Master key bittings can be above or below the other keys, it all depends on how many different locks are part of the masterkey system and whether there are submasters, a pin stack could have two master wafers in it or even more, typically on Best locks.

Impressioning will lower the key to the first shearlines if done properly, and when you do this there is a chance that the key you derive is a master or partial master.

If the system is properly designed though, it will not be so simple. some master pins will be deeper.

if the individual key is bitted 12345 and the master is 54321 then there are shearlines for about 16 or so keys,

14321 12321 52345 54345 well any key that has a shearline represented on each of the bittings.

when you fully master key a lock, there are a lot of random keys that will open it.