FSIC or SFIC for rental properties?

[tivo]

I own several rental properties. They are all currently installed with Schlage C keyway locks and deadbolts. I know how to rekey and I own a cheap second hand blue punch so I also make my own keys.

I'm considering converting all the locks and deadbolts to interchangeable core. I have decided to stick with Schlage since I still want to continue making my own keys using the blue punch. For the same reason, I'll stick with C keyway cores.

However, I'm not sure whether I should choose Full Size or Small Format. Could someone please tell me what are the pros and cons between the two?

Thanks a lot!

[Evan]

Hello tivo:

If you want to keep using your Classic Obverse Blue Punch to make your own Schlage keys for your rental properties you would need to use Schlage Large Format Interchangeable Core locks...

I would recommend an Everest Primus keyway... There would be a certain amount of buy in to obtain that security level, but it would allow you access to blanks to be able to cut your own keys like you are doing now and want to be able to continue to do... Dealer and Distributor level Primus keyways are protected by contract and the locksmiths who service them are not allowed to sell uncut blank keys on those keyways/sidebar bittings to any customers EVER... You didn't say how many rental units/properties you own... The buy in cost would be less of an obstacle the more units you own...

Sticking with the Classic Obverse "C" keyway in an LFIC is a joke, invest in something with a little bit more security where your tenants will not be able to obtain duplicate keys available anywhere with a key machine...

Since you want to keep using your existing Blue Punch you are not able to even consider Small Format Interchangeable Core locks as they use different Blue Punch machines to originate keys for them, the Schlage "B" SFIC keyway families use a totally separate Blue Punch because they are shoulder stop keyways compared to normal SFIC's which are tip stop keyways...

So if you wanted to consider SFIC's you would be looking at purchasing a new Blue Punch as well as an A2 pinning kit and some SFIC service tools like a capping block, capping pin, ejector pin, etc... That is like $2,000 in tools right there before you factor in the new locks...

Stick to a Schlage LFIC system, you can use a standard Schlage pinning kit and tools, plug follower, etc as well as your current Blue Punch to originate your own keys... It is just a matter of obtaining the correct control blank for your keyway...

Good luck...

~~ Evan

[tivo]

Thanks a lot, Evan. That's very informative, especially the ball park on the investment of tools needed to go all SFIC. I'm still debating whether to go all SFIC simply because of the high price point.

I currently own about half a dozen rental properties. May I ask roughly how much of buy in to obtain that kind of security? Also, if I do want to go all SFIC, what are the first steps?

Thanks!

[MacGnG1]

heres a pdf i found really helpful: http://professional.schlage.com/pdfs/pc ... inders.pdf

i dunno pricing but it's going to be a lot and since its only about 6 properties. i think getting your own sidebar code would be a bit expensive to buy in since you are only talking about hand full of properties. You also dont necessarily need everest primus, you could do primus classic or even just everest if you arent necessarily interested in super key control. More security usually means more expensive and in this case that is true.

Just my thoughts... tell us what you had in mind.

[Evan]

heres a pdf i found really helpful: http://professional.schlage.com/pdfs/pc ... inders.pdf

i dunno pricing but it's going to be a lot and since its only about 6 properties. i think getting your own sidebar code would be a bit expensive to buy in since you are only talking about hand full of properties. You also dont necessarily need everest primus, you could do primus classic or even just everest if you arent necessarily interested in super key control. More security usually means more expensive and in this case that is true.

Just my thoughts... tell us what you had in mind.

@MacGnG1:

Distributor and Dealer Primus sidebar codes on keyways are restricted and they can not by contract with Schlage sell any of those keys uncut, every distributor and dealer key must be sold cut to a specific bitting and each bitting gets its own code imprint card to obtain additional duplicate keys thereafter...

This applies to Classic Primus, Classic Primus XL, Everest "C" and "D" Primus and Everest "D" Restricted... Any Classic Primus lock which is retrofitted with a #7 (very shallow) finger pin is considered a Primus XL and is still under patent...

The OP said he wanted to be able to cut his own keys, he will need to purchase his own end user sidebar code in order to obtain Primus keyblanks to cut on his own...

As far as your recommendation for Everest vs. Everest Primus, the OP should go with the Primus option as the Everest "C" open keyway family is open and anyone anytime anywhere can obtain Everest "C" keyway blanks from any Schlage dealer or locksmith supply house, they have NO restrictions on them at all...

There would still be about the same cost to invest in a Primus Classic keyway as there would be an Everest Primus keyway, so the newer product is the better one to invest money in purchasing...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Thanks a lot, Evan. That's very informative, especially the ball park on the investment of tools needed to go all SFIC. I'm still debating whether to go all SFIC simply because of the high price point.

I currently own about half a dozen rental properties. May I ask roughly how much of buy in to obtain that kind of security? Also, if I do want to go all SFIC, what are the first steps?

Thanks!

There are various levels of security with Primus sidebar codes, you wouldn't need a world wide, nation wide or time zone exclusive sidebar code... You would do just fine with a zip code exclusive... I am not sure what the required buy in for that would be, all I know about the subject is that to get such levels requires certain amounts in thousands of dollars of cylinder purchases within a specified time period, or an upfront cash fee...

You would need to consult a locksmith who could contact Schlage on your behalf to determine what the current prices are since there are so many options...

Good luck...

~~ Evan

[tivo]

Thanks again, Evan, for such clear and detailed information.

I have been reading tremendous amount of information about IC, especially all the PDFs I could find on Schlage's website. The more I read it, the more I like about the IC concept. In fact, I think I'm a little obsessed with the IC idea.

The only reason I'm still debating going all SFIC is the cost. At this point, most likely I'll just go with the lower cost, less secured LFIC (sorry Evan). Not only I can gain the convenience of quickly swapping ICs for new tenants, but also I don't need to shell out a large sum of money upfront for upgrades. Needless to say, I also won't waste the hundreds of key blanks, rekeying kit and the blue punch I already invested in.

If money is not a concern, I'd go all SFIC in a heartbeat.

I also found this nice summary of the comparison between LFIC and SFIC:
http://www.doorsecurity.ca/pricebooks/S ... __p224.pdf

The same summary can be found on page 278 of Schlage Price Book 71 under "Schlage Cylinder & Keyway Terminology".

I hope this helps other landlords to clarify more about the interchangeable core options.

Thanks again to Evan for pointing me in the right direction. I truly appreciate your help.

[Evan]

The only reason I'm still debating going all SFIC is the cost. At this point, most likely I'll just go with the lower cost, less secured LFIC (sorry Evan). Not only I can gain the convenience of quickly swapping ICs for new tenants, but also I don't need to shell out a large sum of money upfront for upgrades. Needless to say, I also won't waste the hundreds of key blanks, rekeying kit and the blue punch I already invested in.

I never said LFIC's are less secure, just that if you are going to all the trouble of establishing an LFIC based keying system don't use any of the Classic Obverse keyways -- your tenants will instantly be able to obtain extra duplicate keys from any store with a key machine...

If you don't want to buy into an Everest Primus keyway then go with an Everest keyway from the "C" family, as duplicate keys would only be available from locksmiths and key cutters that are ordering keyblanks from a real locksmith supply house...

You are welcome for the assistance... I am here to share my knowledge and experience with locks with others...

~~ Evan

[MacGnG1]

i think it really comes down to ease and price. Everest C123 keyway is inexpensive for you and provides SOME key control (not a lot but some), you can cut your own keys and there is no buy in. i have a C123 LFIC i got off ebay, and trust me, it isnt as easy to get key blanks as you think (easy to get them online tho.)

Evan made a good point about you wanting to cut your own keys, cant do that with the more restricted keyways.

if you are okay with giving up some key control to make it easier for you to manage your properties, then thats what you gotta do.

[tivo]

Thanks again to Evan & MacGnG1 for the reminder and clarification.

Everest C123 keyway it is.

[MacGnG1]

dont forget to get the control key blanks too!! you are gonna need them.

[maintenanceguy]

in my opinion, unless you're doing key changes several times a week, IC cores are too expensive to be worth the work.

It's easy to swap "key in knob" cylinders in several types of lock sets in just a minute without purchasing IC lock sets and cylinders.


Ilco (and probably others) even make a deadbolt that accepts a mortise cylinder that could be swapped in about a minute.

I work for a large institution with thousands of doors. We use IC cylinders. I don't think it's worth the cost for a few apartments.

Rekeying key in knob cylinders or mortise cylinders don't require additional equipment or the tables or math required for IC cores.

[Evan]

in my opinion, unless you're doing key changes several times a week, IC cores are too expensive to be worth the work.

It's easy to swap "key in knob" cylinders in several types of lock sets in just a minute without purchasing IC lock sets and cylinders.


Ilco (and probably others) even make a deadbolt that accepts a mortise cylinder that could be swapped in about a minute.

I work for a large institution with thousands of doors. We use IC cylinders. I don't think it's worth the cost for a few apartments.

Rekeying key in knob cylinders or mortise cylinders don't require additional equipment or the tables or math required for IC cores.

Schlage and Yale LFICs are keyed up just like normal mortise, rim or KIK/KIL cylinders... No special tools or shear line math required as the control key function for core removal is accomplished by using an extended length keyblank which operates a special pin at the rear of the core to retract and extend the core retention lug...

For people who service locks every day it is indeed quicker to rekey a lock on-site in real time... However, for people who do not work on locks every day, the ease of being able to swap cores and not worry if the spare set of KIK/KIL cylinders they have on hand will fit the lock on the door that they need to rekey that day, or having to deal with a difficult to remove knob, etc... It also allows them to deal with the rekeying of the cylinders in a more controlled environment rather than in field conditions... It is just more simple and a guarantee that the rekey will be accomplished if all the locks are a compatable IC type...

~~ Evan

[maintenanceguy]

It's just as easy to have "spare" kik cylinders as it is to have "spare" ic cylinders and key them in the shop instead of on site. Much cheaper too.

I can buy kik cylinders for less than $10, probably closer to $6. The Schlage or Yale LFIC's are in the neighborhood of $40 from the distributors. I haven't found any generic manufacturers for Schlage or Yale LFIC cores. Best/Falcon SFIC generics are available at about 2x the cost of KIK cylinders but then you're doing the math again. Add a IC housing or lockset to accept IC cores and you've really increased the cost even more.

For cylinder changes every day or for situations where someone with absolutely no mechanical ability needs to be able to swap cores, IC makes sense.

[Evan]

It's just as easy to have "spare" kik cylinders as it is to have "spare" ic cylinders and key them in the shop instead of on site. Much cheaper too.

I can buy kik cylinders for less than $10, probably closer to $6. The Schlage or Yale LFIC's are in the neighborhood of $40 from the distributors. I haven't found any generic manufacturers for Schlage or Yale LFIC cores. Best/Falcon SFIC generics are available at about 2x the cost of KIK cylinders but then you're doing the math again. Add a IC housing or lockset to accept IC cores and you've really increased the cost even more.

For cylinder changes every day or for situations where someone with absolutely no mechanical ability needs to be able to swap cores, IC makes sense.

Right, the only problem there is that you can have literally dozens of KIK/KIL type locks that will use their own special cylinders even if they all share the same keyway...

Your institution is already using similar types of hardware, his 6 rental properties might have totally different types of hardware, each requiring its own set of spare cylinders...

The grade 2 hardware that accepts the LFIC is a step up for most residential applications and will withstand more abuse in a rental situation... Also, the install work is done ONCE correctly and you do not need to worry about proper adjustment of the lock after taking it apart (for deadbolts) or worrying about getting corroded knobs apart... Several landlords that I have met had little to no mechanical ability, this OP is clearly more advanced than that and wants something quick and if he is willing to invest money in having that convenience it is his money to spend... Never know, he might not be the one personally doing the lock changes -- with LFIC he could send his wife or kid to do it for him no tools or dis-assembly required...-

~~ Evan