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Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Daggers » 20 Feb 2012 20:25

What are some specific examples that high security locks use to prevent drilling and bumping? And what are the weaknesses of these methods for the locks that incorporate them?
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Violaetor » 20 Feb 2012 20:44

Bearings, rods and plates for anti-drilling and snapping. No real inherent weakness in adding those to a lock. All of your various security pins and sidebars, strict manufacturing tolerances, make it more difficult to bump, some people would say that security pins can make it easier to SPP by giving you checks along the way to your progress on picking it open.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby spidersilva » 20 Feb 2012 21:32

Daggers wrote:What are some specific examples that high security locks use to prevent drilling and bumping? And what are the weaknesses of these methods for the locks that incorporate them?


No way to "prevent" drilling , everything can be drilled with ease with the correct tools , regardless how thick and hardened the steel is
As for the bumping , there is great way to prevent it - it's called disc locks , and they got no weaknesses
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby dls » 22 Feb 2012 19:46

True anything can be drilled i once drilled a 6mm hole in a 12mm hss drill bit.
drill protection pins do help prevent drilling and will slow down any drill they will also send most drills off course, how to defeat drill protection is not up for discussion here as are methods of bypass.
Disk locks are no more resistant to brute force than any other good quality pin tumbler ( im talking about the cylinder here not the hardware)
Bumping is usually not the way most breakins happen its usually brute force and unless you are worried about covert entry then dont fork out a fortune on abloy etc.
When picking starts to hurt take your finger out
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Daggers » 23 Feb 2012 12:35

im designing a lock and was wondering what type of protection i should give it. It's high security.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby unjust » 23 Feb 2012 18:28

protection for what, and high security as defined by what?

if you're going for government approval, it'll have to be resistant to manipulation and destructive attacks for specific time periods depending on where you are, if you're going for marketing, there's nothing you have to do to make it "high security"

for practical purposes, putting materials in that will make the use of destructive attacks more difficult in helps, and adding things that make manipulation more difficult helps. those can vary from free spinning collets or recessed/flush faces to make it hard to grab, to hardened rods, bearings or plate to complicate drilling, to different spring weights tight warding and sidebars to name a random few.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Daggers » 24 Feb 2012 14:57

protection against drilling and bumping. and high security as in for business buildings.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Evan » 24 Feb 2012 22:01

Daggers wrote:protection against drilling and bumping. and high security as in for business buildings.


@Daggers:

What type of "business building" ?

The security precautions one would take in a bank building or research lab would be greatly different from the ones a normal office building would require...

You seem rather hung up on a bump-proof and drill resistant lock cylinder when in typical commercial building construction one could easily defeat such additional/upgraded "high security" without even touching the lock at all...

Layered Security procedures and technologies deployed and target hardening design methods would be a much better investment than installing really fancy locks that someone who knows what they are doing wouldn't even bother to mess with...

Standard locks combined with a better than basic alarm system is a start...
Adding a security patrol force to the building is even better...
Providing access control devices to common entry doors that are used by many employees is excellent compared to issuing keys to a large number of employees...

Commercial buildings often only have full height floor to ceiling partition walls along the borders of the approved fire compartments in the structure... This is especially true in buildings with HVAC systems that use an "open plenum return"... You would never know this by looking at how neatly constructed they are and how pretty the drop ceilings appear at a casual glance... There are ways to make this arrangement more secure which aren't often built out as a measure to save on construction expenses... Some type of security mesh in wall partitions which separate one tenant occupancy from another or that separate common access corridors from tenant occupancies would prevent a rather common method involving the use of a sharp utility knife...

Compartmentalizing larger tenant occupancies into sections which are individually alarmed is also a wise target hardening decision...

Using master ring cylinders in large buildings allows for building management to maintain access to the entire building without exposing the keying system to reverse engineering attempts by tenants...

CCTV camera systems that monitor all building entry/egress points and major circulation areas (elevator lobbies, hallway intersections, stairwells) would make it difficult for someone to walk in and out to commit a burglary without being able to be identified...

Professional security personnel in the lobby to inspect employees and visitors persons and belongings (metal detectors and a package x-ray machine) would prevent most causal or opportunistic type burglary attempts... Those technologies when deployed these days are more often used to prevent an attack on the building or its tenants by armed individuals or to prevent a terrorist attack...

So let's summarize what is more important than bump-proof and drill resistant locks:

-- target hardening design techniques
-- integrated access control systems
-- identity badges worn by all employees
-- temporary self-adhesive visitor passes
-- intelligent CCTV system at all major access/circulation/congregation points
-- master ring lock cylinders and hardware
-- alarm systems installed and in use
-- professional security guard/patrol force
-- risk assessment for type of tenants/occupancies accommodated in the building

~~ Evan
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby unjust » 25 Feb 2012 3:52

evan elaborated handsomely on the point i alluded to.

i'll add something kinda harsh, but well intended. i am NOT trying to discourage you. if you think that you have something to add to the world of physical security don't let anyone tell you not to, don't stop your study or design of locks, and please, no matter what, always ask questions. (even if you're the smartest person in the room, the best question is often "is this a bad idea?") --to help make your idea a success, please ask yourself the following (internal monologue response):

given what's available on the market, and the manufacturing price-point, what makes you think that you can currently contribute to that marketplace, given that you're asking what appears to (me at least) be rudimentary understanding of well understood and documented compromise methods.

seriously, if you have a brilliant idea, by all f4ing means i want to see it succeed, and i don't want to see you disappointed. the questions you asked are *very* wise questions to ask, but imply that there are significant implications of their application that you don't understand *yet*.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Daggers » 25 Feb 2012 16:16

other security features aren't my worry since I'm just worried about the lock. Anyone with the lock worries about the other parts. That's like telling someone who sells doors to be worried about the structural strength of the houses they sell to.

And i've decided that im probably not going to worry about all of the other security problems of the lock besides picking since i'm going to just license it. But thanks for the info in case i decide to manufacture it instead.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby unjust » 25 Feb 2012 16:37

actually, if you sell doors you DO have to know about the strength of the house to do your job well. not every door is right for every house, and knowing that will mean that you can sell the appropriate thing for the client. sales folk get a bad rap for upselling, but the trick is to sell the appropriate item for the client, and unless you understand the entire system, you don't know if any one piece is apt.

if you're licensing the anti-pick part, then ya, don't worry about the rest, the licensee will put in apt drill protection when they pick a marketing name for it and the like.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Evan » 25 Feb 2012 21:07

Daggers wrote:other security features aren't my worry since I'm just worried about the lock. Anyone with the lock worries about the other parts. That's like telling someone who sells doors to be worried about the structural strength of the houses they sell to.

And i've decided that im probably not going to worry about all of the other security problems of the lock besides picking since i'm going to just license it. But thanks for the info in case i decide to manufacture it instead.


@Daggers:

Have you started the patent application process ?

That can take several years in some cases... Or are you still in the design stage ?

~~ Evan
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Daggers » 26 Feb 2012 12:01

i have the design and am about to go to a prototyping company to get it 3D printed so i can test it before i patent it.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby unjust » 27 Feb 2012 1:46

keep in mind that most 3dp technologies have tolerances w.in .01" or coarser for surface finish, and most locks want surface finishes tighter than .001 ideally .0001. with that in mind, and the ease of 3d modeling and relative cost of printing, i'd go with a print several sizes larger than what you'd use irl. say get the print made at 5x.
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Re: Methods for anti-bumping and drilling

Postby Daggers » 27 Feb 2012 15:07

ok thanks for that info! i'll have them print it bigger so that the tolerances will work better
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