New to locksmithing. What kind of lock is this?

[skiiermike]

Good day everyone and thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide,

I'm very new to locksmithing and I'm in need of some assistance.

I have been asked to replace a lock at a local government office, however I have very little knowledge about it and I was hoping someone could help me out.

I've attached some pictures for reference


SSC_4628 by skiiermike, on Flickr


SSC_4625 by skiiermike, on Flickr


SSC_4627 by skiiermike, on Flickr


SSC_4631 by skiiermike, on Flickr

What lock is this? The cylinder has been removed already. Also how do I properly get the door knobs off so the lock will come out.

Thanks

[sandplum]

It's a mortise lock. I would check the inside knob for a tiny hex screw (and unscrew it to remove the knob).

[Jedilocksmith]

Im assuming you are trying to remove the inner lockset. If you are there just to replace the lock you do not need to remove the lockset...unless it is damaged in some way. The reason I say that is because in your picture, the lock is already out. What problem are you having exactly with the door; why is it being fixed?

The key that you are holding is for a Russwin mortise lock...they are pretty common.

[MrWizard]

If the mortise lock in your pictures is in fact a Russwin/Corbin lockset which it looks like there will be two different methods to remove the inside knob to get the spindle out so you can remove the lock case.

1. Look for a small hole probably in the knob itself that you need to push in the retainer then pull off the knob then need to use a spanner wrench if you have one or if the lock is going to be replaced anyway you can use channel lock pliers to unscrew the thimble which is the tubular looking thing behind the knob with the hole in it.

http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/u62 ... Page82.jpg

2 If you see no hole in the knob anyplace to depress the retainer then you need to unscrew the thimble from the knob itself again using a spanner wrench or channel lock pliers. Note this will unscrew clockwise as you are looking at it since it is unscrewing from the knob itself you will figure that out. Once the knob is off you can then unscrew the square parts to get the spindle out to remove the lock case.

http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/u62 ... e84-02.jpg

Spanner wrenches look similar to this below picture best example I could find quickly online.

http://www.motionpro.com/images/enlarged/08-0029.jpg

You can download the entire Russwin/Corbin Service and Parts Manual here. Ref page 82 and 84

http://extranet.assaabloydss.com/librar ... /45305.pdf

I saved you time looking through this extensive manual to find the above pictures to get the knob off.

Where is the face plate that is missing from the edge of the lock case it should have the manufacture and model number on it.

Hope this helps you, most all these locks come off the same on commercial doors.

Let me know how you come out with this project.
You can PM me with questions you may have after examining the door again.

Richard

[GWiens2001]

Can't tell you how much it impresses me at all the knowledge on this site! My compliments to EVERYBODY who contributes their knowledge helping others here at LP101.

Gordon

[MrWizard]

I should have added looks like the spring loaded dead latch actuator under the main spring latch is missing that keeps the main latch from being jimmied open when it is depressed and the rocker switch to sets the function if this model had one originally is also missing.

As Jedilocksmith said if you are only trying to replace the key cylinder it is called a Mortise cylinder with what is commonly called a yale cam on the back. If it has to be keyed to that Russwin key you will have to determine what the key way is. Russwin has many and a Gov building usually has a restricted keyway if you take a picture of the other side and from the tip facing the camera we can help to tell what it may be. It may also have a 1 or 2 digit number with a N after it on the back side that would be the keyway.

Set screws down inside the 2 holes side by side level with the cylinder on the edge of the lock case one on the left is what you loosen and tighten to remove or install the keyed cylinder. Have to be careful not to cross thread the cylinder when screwing it in if it isn't screwing in really easy back it out and make sure it is straight don't force it.

So now you have this information what is the reason you are fixing this lock was it broke into or damaged somehow? Was the key cyld out when you got there or did you remove it?

Good Luck.
Richard

[skiiermike]

WOW...

I posted this before going to bed and I get up to all this help.

Everyone here is awesome and thank you very much.

I'm off to work for the day and don't have time to go into detail but I will as soon as I get home.

How do I know what size of lock to order? Or are they all the same size?

I have measurements if needed.


SSC_4628 by skiiermike, on Flickr


SSC_4629 by skiiermike, on Flickr


SSC_4630 by skiiermike, on Flickr

Thanks again

[skiiermike]

I forgot to answer one of the questions.

When turning the key in the lock it will no longer move the bolt.

The bolt can be turned from inside with the knob but not from the outside with a key and the key will just keep spinning inside the cylinder.


SSC_4632 by skiiermike, on Flickr

[Jedilocksmith]

When turning the key in the lock it will no longer move the bolt.

The bolt can be turned from inside with the knob but not from the outside with a key and the key will just keep spinning inside the cylinder.

It sounds like the cam/tailpiece on the back of the lock is not engaging the bolt. And if the thumb latch is still unlocking the door from the inside, it sounds like the lockcase is in working order. Is the tailpiece still on the lock? Is it tight? Can you send pics of the lock itself?..front and back?

I did a door for a buddy of mine that was having the same problem. The cam/tailpiece had worked itself loose from the lock not letting it unlock or lock the door. A little lock tight on the cam screws and it was good to go.

I also did another door with a panic bar and the arm that engages the latch had completely jumped out of place because there where bolts missing that held the lockcase in place...so the case had a little wiggle. I tightened everything, replaced bolts, and reassembled and it was good it go.

I could be wrong but that looks like a 59 series keyway. This link may help you.
http://www.locksmithingeducation.com/CR ... Manual.pdf

[MrWizard]

Key is an H series keyway hard to tell which one cause of wear but looks like maybe H1, H3....

Pics of keyways below are how looking at the lock itself will appear or by placing key on pic as if you are inserting into the lock.

http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/u62 ... eyways.jpg

If the key just spins and never throws the bolt could be cam screws are loose or cam is broken off or wrong one used too short, cyld is not screwed in far enough, cyld loose and not straight up and down, lock mech is broken. The dead latch is for sure not there so the lock is broken in that aspect it can be opened with anything slide between the door and frame so is totally not secure to use.

Richard

[skiiermike]

I can send more pics but it will take a few days as I'm out of town for business right now.

The plate that should show the model number has been removed by someone else and it cannot be located.

The lock/knob is in overall terrible condition from abuse over many years that's why the customer elected to have it replaced.

Since it's being replaced does the model number or size matter or are most pretty standard?

[MrWizard]

You want to get an entrance mortise lock, backset and height of case is standard mostly on commercial doors just measure the distance of the knob and the center of the cyld hole or t turn from edge of the door. And the distance height wise from the knob to the center of the cyld or t-turn and inside screws so you know what you get will fit the holes in the steel door. You can modify the holes to fit the new lock long as the plates will cover the change.

Look at the other doors they have in this building for the same exact lock and look on the edge plate for name and or model number is what I would do to ID the lock. If you cannot find a matching one in the building if you are buying new lock locally you could just take in the lock if you can to ask who make this I need one or take in the pictures of it to see if they can tell you what it is and get price quote.

Mortise locks come without the trim which is the long inside and outside plates, knobs or lever handles, keyed cylinder. All of which are very expensive compared to standard knobsets and deadbolts. Price also is gauged by what brand you get and the quality of brand will vary a lot. Corbin/Russwin locks are really expensive locks. Gov buildings usually use the best quality so they last for decades.

**Your best bet is to find a matching one in the building to ID model and brand I'm sure you will find one.**

If you can get away with it you can save money and replace it with one that has the knobs but years ago handicap laws mandate any locks added or replaced on a public business after the date the law was in place "all locks especially ones going in and out of a building or stairwell, rest rooms etc. have lever handles".

But Lever handles are just the trim and have nothing to do in this case it being a mortise lock either one can be used since the trim is sold separate. This is not the case with a regular cylindrical lockset they have to come with levers they cannot be switched after, it is part of the package.

You have your hands full doing this job it is not one someone not in the business a long while would want to tackle but you have a lot of information now that will help you decide what to get or to say maybe you might not want to be doing this particular type of job yet. Cost of this hardware will floor you when they tell you what your cost is and then the buyer will be floored when you tell them what the marked up cost plus labor and service charge is. And unless you know these people like they are family you will have to wait 30 + days to get your money from them as they will have to be billed because the cost is sky high.

Richard

[MrWizard]

Since you new to this type lock I wanted to add the missing rocker switch under the missing spring loaded dead latch is used to set the function to lock door every time the door is closed automatically hence the knob will not turn except from the inside only. This means you must use the key to pull back the spring latch to open the door. Now this also means if the deadbolt part is also locked you have to turn the key 360% to unlock the deadbolt and then continue to turn the key almost 180% again to pull back the spring latch to open the door. Then usually whoever opens in the morning switches the function so anyone can turn the knob if it is a main entrance for the public or workers that have no keys to enter.

Richard

[Evan]

As Jedilocksmith said if you are only trying to replace the key cylinder it is called a Mortise cylinder with what is commonly called a yale cam on the back. If it has to be keyed to that Russwin key you will have to determine what the key way is. Russwin has many and a Gov building usually has a restricted keyway if you take a picture of the other side and from the tip facing the camera we can help to tell what it may be. It may also have a 1 or 2 digit number with a N after it on the back side that would be the keyway.

My educated guess would be something in the HO restricted keyway family as it looks like a mirror reverse of an H1 or H2 keyway...

Definitely not any of the N, A, or D keyways at all...

~~ Evan

[MrWizard]

Looks like a mirror image because you can't look at the end of the key to match it to the profile in the book you have to place the tip of the key on the book as if it is going into the lock to match it. It is in the h family alright.