Shackle Thickness vs. Pick Resistance in Europe...?

[LEDAdd1ct]

Hi, all!

Was in Europe this summer and went through lots of hostels, many with lockers, some without.

While there, I purchased the excellent ABUS 80TI/40 Titalium padlock, as seen http://www.abus.com/eng/Security-at-Home/Padlocks/TITALIUM/80TI and http://www.locksmithledger.com/article/10723288/abus-introduces-titaliumtm-padlocks.

The padlock is surprisingly light, and features a 7mm shackle and 6-pin cylinder with paracentric keyway.

I would not go any larger than a 7mm shackle, as you then run into the issue of the shackle being too thick for the locker in the hostel.

Pros:

-7mm shackle is nice and thick, and much thicker than many of the poorly made travel locks we encountered in Europe, at only 3 or 5mm
-lock is very light; you barely notice it when packed

Cons:

-the 6-pin cylinder can be picked, as I have seen videos online of it being picked (link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJAH8P5s4-o)
-the lock has a spring, which can wear out over time and cause issues
-the lock is double-bolted, but does not use ball bearings, just little levers
-the shackle may be too thick for some lockers

As an alternative, I have a very handsome Anchor Las padlock. It features a 6.5mm stainless steel shackle,
and chrome plated, brass body. It is also double-bolted, but features ball bearings instead of little levers.
Unlike the ABUS 80TI/40, it uses an Abloy style security key, which is much, much harder to pick.

Pros:

-lock is much harder to pick with rotating disc keyway
-lock has smaller 6.5mm shackle, which means it should fit in places where the larger shackle of the ABUS will not
-no springs to wear
-double-bolted ball bearing shackle

Cons:

-the lock's shackle is noticeably smaller at 6.5mm vs. the ABUS 7mm (I believe the difference may be more than the numbers
on paper suggest)
-the lock is noticeably heavier than the ABUS, being made of chrome plated brass rather than ABUS's proprietary metal which really is very lightweight
-the thinner stainless steel shackle would be easier to cut than the thicker "Nano Protect" shackle on the ABUS


Questions

1) In Europe, is picking or cutting (cropping for those in the UK) a greater threat?

2) Would you go with the lighter lock with the thicker shackle, but which can be picked, has springs which can wear,
and does not use ball bearings?

3) Would you go with the heavier lock with the thinner shackle, but which will not be picked, has no springs to wear out,
and has a double ball bearing locking mechanism?

It boils down to:

heavier lock ---> harder to pick

heavier lock ---> thinner shackle ---> easier to cut

heavier lock ---> thinner shackle ---> fit in more places

vs.

lighter lock ---> easier to pick

lighter lock ---> thicker shackle ---> harder to cut

lighter lock ---> thicker shackle ---> fit in fewer places


I currently own both, but would only take one with me on future trips.

When backpacking around cities and towns for weeks on end, every gram really does matter.

[Teddy Picker]

I'm no expert, but I'd guess cutting is probably a bigger threat almost anywhere. Any establishment with lockers is going to have bolt cutters on the premises due to customers leaving their locks. Don't piss off your hostel staff.

[LEDAdd1ct]

Agreed—

it's certainly not my intention to anger anyone.

I ask about the distinction between America and Europe because from my limited understanding of locks
and picking, picking seems to be more prevalent on the other side of the pond than in the states.

So, that makes one vote in favor of the lighter weight, thicker shackled Abus Titalium.

1) What do others think?

2) Is there a lock that meets these requirements:

-7mm shackle
-high security key/disc detainer lock
-brass or aluminum

?

A lock which meets all those requirements and has a shrouded/protected shackle would be perfect!

[lockr]

Honestly, i'd agree with Teddy Picker, your main threat in a situation like this is someone cutting the shackle.

The Abus Titalium's are made in China out of some undisclosed aluminum alloy (Abus says: "a mixture of materials is created that is extremely durable and lightweight; similar to the process used in aircraft construction") designed to match the strength and durability of brass but at lower cost and 30% lighter.

Both Abus and Anchor Las make excellent locks, you'd be fine either way. The main things you should be concerned with are the thickness of the shackle (thick as possible, without being potentially too thick to fit on some lockers), and not drawing attention (this is a downside to a big shiny new padlock). If it looks like you have something to protect, you'll just be advertising that fact to any theives. If weight is an issue, go with the Titalium lock.

I can't offer much insight on the prevalence of picking in Europe vs North America, but I would personally opt for physical security over the pick resistance of a lock. However, in answer to your last question: I assume the Anchor Las lock you're looking at is the 810-1 (grade 2 lock, 35mm body, 6.5mm shackle). There is also the 820-2 series, which are a more respectable 46mm with an 8mm shackle.

[Teddy Picker]

The main things you should be concerned with are ... not drawing attention (this is a downside to a big shiny new padlock). If it looks like you have something to protect, you'll just be advertising that fact to any theives.

I didn't even think of this. And worth noting, the padlock may not be the weak point at all no matter what lock you get: anyone can open a cheap locker with a crowbar without even touching the lock.

In the end, your best protection might be traveler's insurance.

[LEDAdd1ct]

1) Yes, it is the Anchor Las 810-1, a Grade 2 lock with 35mm body and 6.5mm shackle.

I did not choose the 8mm version for two reasons:

a) 8mm may be too thick for some lockers—I don't want to carry something larger and heavier when I am fairly certain it won't work on many due to physical (size) restrictions.

b) I already own the excellent Abloy 330, which is 8mm.

2) I thought about the "bling factor" of a solid lock. I suppose I would rather have a lock built well that looks pretty than a lock that looks less appealing and is more susceptible to cutting, picking, or both.

Having an Abus or Anchor Las, locks both made by European lock companies, in Europe, probably won't attract as much attention.

I remember that most lockers were secured with very poorly manufactured locks, many only 5mm, which in my mind is inviting trouble.

Thank you again for your help; I welcome the input of others.

[lockr]

It sounds like you've answered your own question!

I'd say go with the Anchor Las 810-1 as it sounds like it's popular in Europe, it's small enough that it won't draw attention to your locker and won't be a burden to transport, and the shackle won't be too thick that it would risk not being able to fit onto some lockers.

If I recall correctly, these are chrome plated brass locks. Maybe you could dull the surface somehow to make the lock stand out less? Just remember, if someone wants to get into your locker, they'll find a way; so your goal should be to a) not draw attention to your locker in particular, and b) provide enough of a deterrant that any would-be thief would look for an easier target. I think this Anchor Las lock is a good fit.

[In.Xanadu]

Unless things have changed dramatically, I wouldn't worry about a thief taking their time to pick a lock in a hostel, and honestly, a bolt cutter is only slightly more common. Unless you're in a very shady hostel where those kinds of things happen, there are usually enough people around to provide security enough, and the contents of your average traveler's locker aren't worth the risk.

Really, the fact that you've put any thought into the security of your stuff probably means you're going to be fine, and the person who didn't bother to bring a lock will have their stuff pilfered.

[EmCee]

I agree with the above. I don't know of any studies into the relative prevalence of picking in US vs Europe but I'd say that picking is a very small problem in the overall context of illegal entry. People who are hobbyists and have an interest in locks naturally think about picking as a way to open a lock. But that is a small percentage of people. Most people think of a lock as a barrier that they can't open. Whether you are talking about door locks or padlocks, most illegal entry is gained by means other than picking.

Now, of course there may be one or more thieves who have decided to target the market of travellers and hostels and have learned picking. However, in my experience most travellers aren't stupid and (as you said in relation to the weight of a padlock) don't carry tonnes of stuff around with them. If they leave stuff in a locker while out and about, that stuff will likely be clothes, perhaps some books. Nobody with any sense will leave money, jewellery, watches, glasses, important medication or passports in a locker, and if they have a camera they'll take it with them to use while they are out and about, ditto mobile phone. The only thing that might be valuable but too bulky to carry around is a laptop, and sensible travellers will either not carry one, or keep it in their day sack, or find somewhere safer to leave it (maybe the hostel manager has a safe). In other words, a group of criminals who decide to target travellers must know that the chances of finding anything really valuable (aka easily saleable) in a hostel locker will be very slim, so the investment in time and effort to set up a picking group would be unlikely to reap a good payback.

That leaves opportunist destructive entry. I can't see how it is any more likely that someone will go around with bolt croppers than it is that they will go around with a big screwdriver or a jemmy, in which case the padlock isn't going to make any difference.

As In.Xanadu said, the fact that you are thinking about security puts you way ahead. Don't leave anything really valuable in the locker (not just monetary value but anything whose loss would cause you a real problem). Use a padlock for the locker by all means, but don't over-worry about picking or cropping. People who are hobbyists and know about locks tend to think about defeating them and tend to think other people are thinking the same...but, by and large, they are not.

[LEDAdd1ct]

1) Thank you all for the thoughtful feedback. As someone who has always loved playing with locks and been curious about their workings, the fact that you take the time to answer the questions of someone new to the field is gratifying.

2) I totally understand about people involved in a hobby:

a) Knowing more than the average person,

and,

b) Coming to the conclusion through exposure to the subject that others think about the topic as frequently
and in as much depth as they do

can make someone more aware of potential threats, which does not, necessarily, take into account how frequently one will
encounter such threats in the real world.

3) Yes, the Anchor Las is chrome plated brass.

4) The Anchor Las is shiny, while the Abus has a dull, matte finish.

5) If I should not be overly concerned with picking, then the two remaining factors are weight and shackle thickness:

The Abus has the thicker shackle, and is very noticeably lighter than the Anchor Las;
the Anchor Las has the thinner shackle, and is very noticeably heavier than the Abus.

6) The Anchor Las with its thinner shackle will fit very locker out there.

The Abus may not.

By shackle thickness alone, this makes me lean towards the Anchor Las.

7) As others have noted, locks are merely a deterrent, one which has fascinated me over the years,
and garnered much respect for those in the trade and hobbyists.

Thank you all for your positive feedback and support.

[Teddy Picker]

Another fun possibility is to choose a lock that can be used as a distraction. Just make sure the lock itself is worth more than all the stuff in your locker combined. Slap one of these bad boys on there.

[ARF-GEF]

I've seen several similar discussions in this forum. Try searching for locker or gym and you will find similar discussions. Maybe you'll find something of interest there.

Maybe you could paint the outside of the lock with simple metal paint? I'd say brown,for a padlock that's one of the least glamorous colours in my opinion:). (Just be careful not to get any paint to the mechanism itself.)

I'm from Europe (I mean from the mainland) and I don't think picking is the method of attack you should be worried about. Unless it's a really basic Chinese lock or a simple tubular lock, cutting and crowbars are the bigger threats here.

I would vote against the abus because of the same reason as lockr. As a rule of thumb you can say aluminium is a soft metal. I don't know about the exact alloy used in them, but if it's that great they would have written something more detailed like 10% harder or like that.
I know about aluminium-scandium alloys which have excellent physical qualities (hard and quite resistant to wear almost as good as steel, just lighter) but it's also quite expensive. I don't think abus uses al-sc alloy.
Anchor las is a good choice. But really both are OK.
I think ABUS lock are a lot more prevalent in Europe than anchor-las. Especially in Germany, Austria and eastern from them.That's of course a good and a bad thing at the same time.

6,5mm vs. 7mm is not such a big difference either. If someone cuts 6,5mm it's not the extra 0.5mm that's stopping him. The material used is more important in IMHO.

But my best advice is probably the following:When you travel take as few valuables with you as possible and never take anything with you what you couldn't bear losing. Keep most valuables at you in a secure place (not in outer coat pocket e.g. ). Don't show off. Oh and be careful and suspicious:).

[dicey]

The Abus Titalium's are made in China out of some undisclosed aluminum alloy (Abus says: "a mixture of materials is created that is extremely durable and lightweight; similar to the process used in aircraft construction") designed to match the strength and durability of brass but at lower cost and 30% lighter.

I know that Abus wants you to believe this but I did some scratching test on it and also looked how hard it is to get bumps in the body. In my opinion it is Aluminum with like 0.001 percentage of some other material in it... It behaves like Au and you can scratch it as Au and also get as easy bumps in it as with Au. Drop a screw driver with hardened tip out of the same height on the Abus Aluminum and on the Titalium and the bumps will have exactly the same size.

In my opinion there are several padlocks which you can use but the Anchor Las Grade 2 padlock is probably the best choice. I would also recommend the Abus 72/40 either as Aluminum with hardened steel shackle or the Ecolution version with stainless steel shackle (very cool!) both with ball bearings and you can can't bypass them but the shackle is only 6.5mm in diameter, 6 pin with security pins. Also see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwnh7ljK_po
And then there is the Abus 89/40 with Abus Plus cylinder also a nice padlock with 7mm shackle.

It just depends on what you want because all those locks are good I would say. Here in Germany only locks with really cheap cylinders get picked, we rarely have picking here only on cheap wafers or cheap pin tumblers. As long as you have decent security pins in it and a good keyway restriction it should do the trick. It is highly unlikely that anyone will ever pick the Anchor Las disc cylinder though.

[lockr]

I know that Abus wants you to believe this but I did some scratching test on it and also looked how hard it is to get bumps in the body. In my opinion it is Aluminum with like 0.001 percentage of some other material in it... It behaves like Au and you can scratch it as Au and also get as easy bumps in it as with Au. Drop a screw driver with hardened tip out of the same height on the Abus Aluminum and on the Titalium and the bumps will have exactly the same size.

It's probably 6061 alloy or similar. As the name implies, there is Titanium in the mixture. The main reason they're doing this is to cut costs, because (1) the price of Copper (the primary ingredient in Brass) has really skyrocketed recently, and (2) this alloy is lighter and presumably easier to tool*, resulting in cheaper manufacturing and shipping costs.

* in addition to Copper and Zinc, Brass often contains Lead to soften the metal and make it easier to machine (eg, doesn't wear out bits as fast). This applies to keys and cylinders, and probably lock bodies as well. Lead can leach from brass keys and lock components, so be careful... never give brass keys to kids to play with (they almost always end up in their mouths). I've seen this all too often. One of the reason virtually all of my keys are nickel-silver (Schlage Everest, Bilock and Abloy Protec)...

[ARF-GEF]

Abus says the alloy is like the ones used in the aviation industry.
The 6xxx series of aluminium alloys, suggested by lockr, are an excellent idea, they are of very high strength. But I think we should consider the 7xxx series which are suitable for more common temperatures and as far as I know they are the hardest aluminium alloys. The 7005 is possible but 7075 7010 7068 are stronger (strength growing in that order).
About the components all I know is that both 7010 and 7075 contains mainly aluminium (duh) some Mg and some copper too.
(I've only found the exact components of 7075 : Al 5,6Zn 2,5Mg 1,6Cu C.)
(I think copper's price increase as inhibiting factor is a valid idea. I don't think it's easy to leave copper absolutely out though since it's primarily responsible for the strength in these alloys. Silver is also often used in aluminium alloys to improve strength but that's not any more cost efficient either.)

I don't think titanium is the main element in the alloy. Alloy 6061 for example is very good candidate! High strength high corrosion resistance but is doesn't really contain titanium.(As far as I know. I can be wrong as always.) I've heard that it's prone to forming coarse nuclei and other impurities when mixed with chromium. Maybe there is some small amounts of titanium in it, I'm not sure. Nonetheless I think the name is more of a fancy name than a n actual representative of the alloy in this case. You know like calling a lock "ultimate"...


@Dicey: I'm not sure I've understood what you wrote correctly. I think Au means gold(at least where I come from), so if it behaves like Au the alloy is very weak and completely unsuitable for any lock. Or is it just a typo and you meant Al?
Or is Au the symbol for Aluminium in Germany? I have no idea but I'm curious now:).
On the lock recommendation I totally agree with you. I find the eco series cool too! Really nice to know such things are around. PVC vinyl coverings are not that much eco friendly though, but that's just nitpicking:).