AM 5200 - Difficult pin configurations

[fgarci03]

Heya!

As stated before, I've been playing for the last few days with 3 American Padlocks 5200.
I'm currently almost 100% focused in picking serrated pins, thus repining my locks every couple of minutes and try new combinations.

My question is, what combinations of driver pins you find more difficult, thus needing more atention and practice?

I tried: all serrated, 3 serrated and 2 spoorated (standart config), 4 spoorated and 1 serrated; finding this last one the most difficult. I'd like to know if there are other configurations that you find more difficult so I can practice a bit more.


P.S. - I'm talking about driver pins configurations, not the key pins.

Thanks!

[fgarci03]

I am also willing to listen (or in this case, read!) suggestions about picking them. I think I got pretty good at picking them, at least for my level of skill. But I'd like to know more about serrated pins. for example, I still cannot put to words how I feel they are set. I just know, period. Why is that? I thought it might have something to do with the rotation of the plug being a little more pronounced when they set than when they just click on a serration (but still a lot less than a spool false set). And there is a slight counter-rotation if I try to go further. Or sometimes it's about the audible click they make when they set or just false set on a serration.
But I sometimes get it wrong. So I still don't know EXACTLY what to look for when picking them. I just trust my gut. OK, it has been correct, but I like to know the science behind it too. Not "just knowing" it's set...

For example: Although I take much less time picking an all serrated driver than a 3 serrated and 2 spoorated, I think I understand better what is going on inside the lock on the second. On the first it's really only gut. When I feel like they set, they, in fact, are. Don't know how to explain wtf I just did. And I can't also say it's just luck, because I pick them fairly consistently...


WHYYYYYYYYY?

[easy-e]

I haven't picked a AM 5200 but I have picked other locks with serrated pins. I agree that it's more experience and gut instinct about how it feels. I've noticed basically the same things you have.

When I start I shoot for getting into a false set. When I'm lifting on a pin stuck in a serration I feel it trying to grind it's way out while slightly counter rotating I'll lighten up on my tension and get back into the false set. If I'm still getting the same feeling I'm probably in another serration so I repeat. If it feels solid or the plug has rotated further I assume I've completely set the pin. If I ended up overlifting the pin I make a mental note and start over if I can't get the pin to drop back by lightening up on the tensioner. I move onto the next pin to see if I feel the same grinding/counter rotation and repeat the same process. If I'm not sure about a pin I move to the next one and then come back. As long as I can keep track of which pins I've already lifted and set I don't have any problems. After resetting a few times you have figured out a few pins for certain and you can adjust your game plan accordingly. I always have the most issues getting the first pin or two set but after that it's just knowing which types of pins might be in the lock and attacking it accordingly.

When I'm picking a lock with a combination of serrated, spool, and spoorated pins I shoot for all of the serrated pins first. Once I get into that deeper false set I know I only have spools left. If I lift a spool and end up in a shallower false set I know I'm back in a serration which I know should be at the bottom of a spoorated pin and I just need to lift it a bit further.

[fgarci03]

When I'm picking a lock with a combination of serrated, spool, and spoorated pins I shoot for all of the serrated pins first. Once I get into that deeper false set I know I only have spools left. If I lift a spool and end up in a shallower false set I know I'm back in a serration which I know should be at the bottom of a spoorated pin and I just need to lift it a bit further.

I have found that I in many locks I can't just pick the regular (or serrated in this case) driver pins first. I pined a 5200 with 4 spoorated and 1 serrated and the 1 serrated didn't bind. Only like after I set 2 spools before.

I believe that those 2 spools at rest, were blocking the sheerline with their larger part. So they acted as regular pins here.
I've also picked a 6pin MTL Garrison 7x7 (yes, 7x7 with 6 pins!) all spooled that didn't go to false set untill I picked a few pins.



I've also found that sometimes, using just a regular driver and everything else spooled, the lock DOES go into a false set before picking the regular one.

Not a big false set though (not even close to a spool false set), but enough to find it odd!

[easy-e]

I've also found that sometimes, using just a regular driver and everything else spooled, the lock DOES go into a false set before picking the regular one.

Not a big false set though (not even close to a spool false set), but enough to find it odd!

Those pesky normal driver pins!!!

I've had a problem getting into a false set too. Once I get in I'm good and I can work the system but sometimes I have to get out one of my rakes to get the ball rolling. Shoot I had one lock that was already in a false set, all I had to do was tension the plug! If only life was that easy.

[fgarci03]

And what about driver configurations? I'm testing some to get used to all of them. What are the most difficult ones?

[mhole]

I find with serrated pins that going back and forwards tons is the route to success. Sometimes you can't feel what is set and what is bound up on the serrations, but usually a set pins has a tiny amount of give, where as a serrated pin which is pinched will feel almost totally rigid. Pushing rarely produces a positive counter-rotation, but sometimes a firm press yeilds a click and a tiny, tiny movement of the plug which lets you know you either advance one serration, or fully set the pin.

Whilst I aspire to know exactly what is happening whilst picking, sometimes just patiently going back and forwards trying and re-trying pins with varied tension and pick pressure is the best way to get 'er done.

[fgarci03]

I find with serrated pins that going back and forwards tons is the route to success.

Although I've done it, I don't usually do that. It takes to much time. Of course it's the "most secure" way to get it done.
The way I do that is to find the binding pin, lift untill it clicks, look for another binding pin and repeat untill it pops open. If no other binds, lift the same again to the next click. Most of the times even if you don't pick with the correct binding order, the previously set (or false set) pins won't reset. It sometimes happen, but I don't feel it much significant though. Eventually it opens.

But I've been suceeding in distinguishing the sets and false sets in serrations pretty good.
I pretty much use a combination of feeling and hearing. When it false sets, you hear a faint clicking sound. When it sets, the sound is much more crispy. It's not always accurate though, as it can be confusing if the lock is absolutely clean. With time, serrations tend to get dirt on them, and really fainten the clicks. But with clean pins, all the clicks are crispy, and although they are a bit different, they can confuse you ALOT!

Feeling is much more acurate, and the plug usually rotates a little bit; far enough for you to feel it. When it just clicks there is no rotation, just a kind of vibration. And if in doubt, lift the pin a bit further with medium/heavy tension. Slowly decrease tension and try to feel for a counter-rotation. If it does happen, the pin a certainly set. If not, it may or may not be (it's actually the same technique for picking spools, but the amount of counter-rotation is TINY compared to it. So just test it, don't go too far or you'll overset it).
But sometimes (not many, but enough to make it significant) no audible or tactile feedback is enough for you to be sure. This may depend on the level of skill of the picker, but sometimes it's just not an accurate feedback. On those situations I go for the next binding pin. If needed, I come back to that pin later. I find it better to underset pins than to overset, because it's much more difficult to release tension just enough for it to properly set without reseting other pins.
This is specially true when you have already setted pins in an incorrect binding order (the serrations make that possible to happen) because you will loose those setted pins. For sure.

I'm still testing and re-testing various configurations of pins, trying to figure many things out, but I may post all my findings in one single post in a near future

[zeke79]

When you get tired of the american padlocks find yourself an assa twin in good condition. Remove the sidebar when starting out and try to pick just the typical pins. The plug is counter bored close to the top where the pins sit. The top pins are a sort of spool pin that will catch in the counter bored chambers while picking. They can be a real bear to pick.

[fgarci03]

I've been looking to get one lately but money is short

Didn't know I could do that though! I don't quite understand what you mean with counterbored
Thanks!

[zeke79]

This is just a quick sketch but shows the idea of counter bored pin chambers. The larger diameter section grabs the spool lip on the pin when tension is applied, trapping the pin from being lifted out of the plug. You don't get the counter rotation with this setup like you do with a spool pin in a conventional plug. Hope the sketch helps.


Pin design



Section view of the plug



Pin interaction with plug

[fgarci03]

WOW AWESOME

Thanks! And having no counter-rotation makes them SOOO evil!
But although being difficult to overcome, they seem (and I'm just assuming by looking at the images) easy to find a false set. It looks to me that you would hear and feel a faint click and, if you're paying attention of course, pretty distinguishable. Am I wrong?

Is there a specific way to overcome these pins? Or just the same as regular serrations?

P.S. - Since we are not discussing the side bar, etc, I think we can talk about this here. If not, PM me and I'll start a thread in the Advanced.

[zeke79]

Leaving the sidebar out of the discussion we can keep it in the open forums as ASSA uses this same principal on a range of locks including some of the 7 pin SCD (which have pin types that are even more evil).

Like anything else the pins have their own distinct feel. If you have a lock with the stainless plug that is in good shape they stay pretty tough to pick yet if you find a brass plug the counter bore areas wear and lose their sharp edge and become easier to pick after they have been in use for some time.

For me, i can feel that false sets but the process takes longer during picking because pins I have fully set seem to reset more often as i progress and pick more pins. It just takes more time no matter how long i practiced at it. You do have to use more gut feeling when picking to determine if you have a false set pin as it is real easy to confuse with a correctly set pin which you end up going back to overset. I find that remembering which pins I know i have fully set and discovering that they have reset when i pick another pin helps. Overall you just have to pay alot of attention to what your wrench and pick is telling you.

[zeke79]

You can see the same principal used with the assa 7 pin lock in Han Feys article linked below. I have one of these cylinders and have picked it but never reliably.

http://toool.nl/images/f/f9/Cutaway1.pdf

[easy-e]

WOW AWESOME

^this. Zeke70: Those pictures are perfect to explain counter milling. I tried to google, but couldn't find any.