Masterkey puzzle 2.0

[EvH]

Hi all,

Well this is my first post because I found this thread:
In this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=57939&p=422894 Evan is giving 2 solutions, based on the given numbers.

I tried this myself with these change keys:
12434
12512
14144
15326
22131
31413
32554
33332
34554
41524
45322
51151
52462
54241
54632
62535
64554
66345

Based on Evan's reaction, TPP is not the solution.Then I thought, maybe the RC is an option... but....the given numbers are just random.
In total there are 4096 combinations possible, the only numbers that I can use, are 1 to 6.

All cilinders that I have opened, only have bottom pins and top pins, I didn't find any other pins.

1. Is it possible to make a "MK" ( or GMK ) with this information?
2. if so, how can i find the combination
3. and the most easiest if it's possible, what will be the combination.

[Evan]

Hi EvH:

Welcome to LP101...

Given your stated facts you could not create a master key for the locks in question...

It sounds like they are a group of locks each keyed differently, as without master pins in each lock there would not be a conventional way to have a master key which is capable of operating all of those bittings without having key interchange...

The bitting list you provided looks like 5-pin Kwikset locks...

The rules for Kwikset are single-step progression, so the 4,096 number of bittings doesn't apply...

4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 = 4,096 or 4 ^ 6

For Kwikset it would be 5 ^ 5 for a TPP system or 3,125 bittings...

~~ Evan

[2octops]

There is not enough info given to be able to determine an answer for the question that you actually did not ask.

What are you trying to accomplish?

What are all of those bittings and where did you get them?

What keyway are you working with?

I am assuming that you are trying to find a master for all of those bittings?

[peterwn]

Hi all,

Well this is my first post because I found this thread:
In this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=57939&p=422894 Evan is giving 2 solutions, based on the given numbers.
..............

1. Is it possible to make a "MK" ( or GMK ) with this information?
2. if so, how can i find the combination
3. and the most easiest if it's possible, what will be the combination.

I devised that puzzle and as Evan found, I deliberately worked it around both a TPP masterkey and RC masterkey. I carefully chose the bittings to create a plausible puzzle then set about 'progressing' a minimum set of change keys that when 'reverse engineered' would 'yield' one or other masterkey codings.

I suspect some people imagine that ordinary pin tumbler locks are masterkeyed as a matter of course and this could be based on example people may be exposed to - such as masterkeys in hotels or offices, office furniture etc. Office furniture is often masterkeyed because it suits the trade - sales and maintenance people can have masterkeys to help deal with missing keys etc or to give to janitors or property managers of end clients. It also seems some builders fit masterkeyed locks (with construction keying) to houses they build. Although first time use of the change key disables the construction masterkey, a slightly different masterkey will continue to open all the houses concerned. If locksmiths get wind of this, they may make such materkeys for themselves when dealing with lockouts. I am personally surprised at this practice because if a masterkey is misused on a house that has been sold facilitating burglary, rape, etc the builder could be sued for millions.

Hence such people may be unaware that most locks are sold 'not masterkeyed' and in general, masterkeyed locks have to be specifically ordered and set up as such. So trying to discern a masterkey from a set of regular locks is doomed to failure - there is no such masterkey.

For the keys listed I cannot discern any masterkey whether TPP or RC, and as he has indicated, nor can Evan.