Schlage Everest binding and tension

[nite0wl]

So, I have had this Schlage Everest KnK cylinder (the only markings are the Everest logo and "C123").Ignore the "Primus" marking on the key, they appear to be Primus blanks that were used to make keys for this Everest lock; ah, the mysteries of E-Bay.

This thing has been giving me no end of difficulty with its binding order and feedback. I have used both my Peterson ET-2 and pry-bar tension tools but the results are pretty much the same, almost no feedback and inconsistent binding. Even using 0.018" and 0.015" thickness picks I get a lot of scraping on the warding.
Anyone with some helpful ideas about what I can do to relieve some of these issues?

[femurat]

Are you aware of the check pin? Try to lift it every now and then...

Good luck

[nite0wl]

Are you aware of the check pin? Try to lift it every now and then...

Good luck

Quite aware. When using the Peterson ET-2 (that crazy looking thing with the light blue handle in the picture) the check-pin is essentially disabled by the long 'finger' while the shorter stepped portion acts as like a primary tensioner (in theory, in reality both fingers probably provide some measure of tension). When using a pry-bar type I use a half-diamond to lift the check-pin periodically.

Neither of these methods have proven satisfactory as regardless of my tension tool and the status of the check-pin I will lose any apparent binding around half-way through setting the six pins (essentially after setting three or so pins, there is no apparent binding going on, even with the check-pin disabled).

[nite0wl]

I am also curious, since I cannot find a definitive answer anywhere else: Are standard Schlage driver and key pins interchangeable with their counterparts from the Everest line?

[femurat]

Well, the check pin is not the problem.

I've had a hard time picking some kik because it's difficult to keep such a small and round lock in my hand. Compared to an euro lock or to a rim cylinder. Have you tried to put it in the vice? This could help a lot.

Also, are you sure you haven't overlifted a pin?
Cheers

[nite0wl]

Well, the check pin is not the problem.

I've had a hard time picking some kik because it's difficult to keep such a small and round lock in my hand. Compared to an euro lock or to a rim cylinder. Have you tried to put it in the vice? This could help a lot.

Cheers

These days, unless I am at a TOOOL meeting or picking padlocks on my couch, I put them in a vice or a stand (that is certainly how I do just about all of my videos).
The real question is how I can better feedback. I have tried disassembling this cylinder and essentially re-pinning it in basic progressive excercises, 1-3 pins are dead easy, 4 and up the tendency is for one of the very long pins to get overset without providing any feedback. Applying torque to the plug is easy, applying the right amount of torque AND being able to feel when a pin is being set is what is giving me difficulty.

[Snakedoc]

I had the same exact issue with mine when tensioning CW. Try CCW and check for the slider when you stop getting feedback from the pins. You are most likely over lifting. I used a Peterson number 4 Hook for the upper pins and a short hook inserted sideways to engage the slider.

[nite0wl]

I had the same exact issue with mine when tensioning CW. Try CCW and check for the slider when you stop getting feedback from the pins. You are most likely over lifting. When you say you loose feedback, what does that mean exactly? I used a Peterson number 4 Hook for the upper pins and a short hook inserted sideways to engage the slider.

My default technique for Everest locks is to use my Peterson ET-2 tools for tension (I prefer the 'right hand' tool [blue handle] over the 'left hand'/green handle tool because allows me to use the edge of the body/housing for leverage) and a slim Peterson flat-tip hook (Hook 1). This works well for 3 or so pins at which point I cannot find any more binding pins, all of the pins either seem to bounce freely or are very much set and not moving.
Alternate technique is to use a Peterson Pry-bar for tension with a slim Peterson Hook 1 to lift pins and a half-diamond to lift the check-pin, every one or two set pins I check that the check-pin is still set. Similarly to the 'default method' above I tend to loose any sort of noticeable binding on the pins around the third or fourth set.

In both cases the big issue for me is the lack of any noticeable feedback on when a pin is actually setting. I have gone back to my regular Schlage KnK cylinders and even with the maximum depth pins (#9 key pins) there is still a noticeable 'click' or small jolt when setting a pin on the standard cylinders, in the Everest cylinders I have, there is little to no noticeable feedback especially when setting a near maximum-depth pin.

[Snakedoc]

The pins that move freely without spring tension are already set and the ones that are stuck are over set. Everest doesn't have security pins so stuck pin means you have lifted too far.
Forget the fancy peterson tension tool and use your pry bar for top of the key way and provide CCW tension. Check the side bar pin first, if it's binding.... You can tell. Move on to the top pins if the side bar pin is springy.
Slowly lift each binding pin rather than mashing them up as high as possible and hope for a click. Binding order is important so reset often if you think you made a mistake. Make sure you count the pins as you look for a binder.
After setting all top pins or lack of feedback you should go back to the sidebar pin, if it's not binding then you did something wrong with the key pins, reset.

[nite0wl]

The pins that move freely without spring tension are already set and the ones that are stuck are over set. Everest doesn't have security pins so stuck pin means you have lifted too far. Forget the fancy peterson tension tool and use your pry bar for top of the key way and provide CCW tension. Check the side bar pin first, if it's binding.... You can tell. Move on to the top pins if the side bar pin is springy. Slowly lift each binding pin rather than mashing them up as high as possible and hope for a click. Binding order is important so reset often if you think you made a mistake. After setting all top pins or lack of feedback you should go back to the sidebar pin, if it's not binding then you did something wrong with the key pins, reset.

See, the issue I am having is that there is no "click". I have even dismantled the cylinder and removed the check-pin (there is no sidebar in an Everest cylinder, it is a finger or check pin) just eliminate that possible complication; with this being reduced to what is effectively (in theory) a standard 6 pin Schlage cylinder I still cannot feel when a pin is being set. This issue of not being able to tell when a pin is at or near the shear line is specifically the issue I was looking for help with.

[Snakedoc]

Have you tried using a longer hook.

[Robotnik]

I've had a similar issue with one Everest, as well as the Everest Primus I'm currently working on. It's almost as if two pins bind simultaneously; dampening feedback for each other - lift the one binding pin and the other binds instead, drop the one pin and lift the other and the situation reverses. These locks are machined with very tight tolerances, so I chalked it up to a case of near-simultaneous binding. With the Everest, I went with extra-light tension and eventually broke through the wall, so to speak.

Still working on breaking through that wall with my Everest Primus. The aggravating part is that I've picked the sidebar, but can't open it with the top pins (supposed to be the easy part). Even with just top pins...nothing.

[nite0wl]

I've had a similar issue with one Everest, as well as the Everest Primus I'm currently working on. It's almost as if two pins bind simultaneously; dampening feedback for each other - lift the one binding pin and the other binds instead, drop the one pin and lift the other and the situation reverses. These locks are machined with very tight tolerances, so I chalked it up to a case of near-simultaneous binding. With the Everest, I went with extra-light tension and eventually broke through the wall, so to speak.

Still working on breaking through that wall with my Everest Primus. The aggravating part is that I've picked the sidebar, but can't open it with the top pins (supposed to be the easy part). Even with just top pins...nothing.

An interesting theory there Robotnik. There is definitely something about these (and the Primus, Everest-Primus by extension) that causes some strange binding and feedback issues and your idea seems like the most reasonable explanation. I will try to see if I can achieve that same level of tension and see if that makes any sort of difference. Thanks.

[nite0wl]

I think you are definitely on to something Robotnik. I tried varying my tension and forced myself to go even lighter than I thought I needed to things improved. I also found that I got more useful feedback from the sounds the lock made when I was picking it, if you listen closely and are lucky to have a quiet environment you can distinguish the sound of a pin setting versus all the other little noises it makes.

[nite0wl]

I thought I should ad a small note regarding the peterson Everest tension tools (Peterson ET-2).
The 'right hand' tool (blue handle, with handle extending to the right [relative to the keyway when the check-pin finger is the lower of the two]) does provide better feedback if a portion of the shrink-tube coating is trimmed off. In my case I removed roughly 1/4" of the coating near the end of the handle so that my tensioning finger could make contact with the bare metal of the handle (depending on your hands and mounting circumstances more or less material may need to be removed).

The 'left hand' tool (green handle, handle extends to left when check-pin finger is on the bottom) still presents some difficulty for me due to it's shape. Like a "wishbone" tension tool, this tension tool forces you to work you pick in between two arms of the tensioner (regardless of CW/CCW turning direction and orientation). This poses some problems if your preferred picking technique relies on using the lip or edge of the keyway/housing as a pivot point for your pick as you will now be levering your pick off the tension tool arm which stands some .25" or more away from the face of the plug itself. This combines with the thickness of the arms of the tool also raises the height of the pivot point relative to the outermost point of the keyway which forces the pick to be inserted at a very steep angle which may cause the shaft to overset very long pins (imagine a hook being inserted in such an angle the it looked similar to a check-mark and only being able to 'rock' on a pivot point half way along the long arm of the mark, then imagine you had a depth 9 pin in chamber 1).

Just some thoughts and observations to anyone else try to use these tools on these locks (or looking to try).