Identifying a Schlage key

[lh324]

Hi,

Can someone identify this kind of Schlage key?



It is supposed to be a Schlage High Security Key (I think) but it is not an SC1 , Schlage Primus etc. I fould find in http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Schlage_Primus because it has only one sidebar.
On one side it says only "Schlage", on the other side "A27" and "WVTR" (or "WVTA" - difficult to read).

Thank you,
Lukas

[jeffmoss26]

Schlage quad restricted keyway. You won't be able to get blanks.

[nick08037]

Hello Lukas,
As Jeff stated it is part of Schlage's restricted keyway series, just one of many over the years. Schlage and other manufactures offer this for the obvious reason, easy access to key blanks can undermine the security of a key system.
-Nick

[lh324]

Not that I have asked for a blank - but thanks for the identification.

Just for my curiosity: Why exactly is it so hard/"impossible" to get such keys duplicated?

As far as I know there are no active patents any more so everyone could manufacture blanks.

Coming from a computer security background I generally wonder what prevents people from copying these keys (Kerckhoff's principle!): All you need is on the key itself, that should be trivial to do for someone with a little bit dexterity ... why is a blank even needed in the first place?

Even if ... how does it come that there are no dubious companies manufacturing duplicates of blanks (and maybe even keys themselves)?

And now, even if there were some patents [1], how does it come that the black market is not swamped with the respective blanks?

Can't wrap my head around that ... how a key like that can be deemed "high security" at all. Having said that, RFID based systems are not perfect (I'm developer of those ICs) but cloning an RFID chip seems like a complete different story (at least to me).


[1] And these patents seem sooooo ridiculous to me: I know about one patent (Best Cormax) - as far as I understand they "patented" nothing more than removing 4mm of metal at some particular spot on the key/blank. How creative! I even wonder how this can be patented.

[billdeserthills]

This side of that key blank reminds me of the old double sided cadillac allante, of course after that you'll need a file, or a dremel tool
and the will to become a key pirate!

[cheerIO]

Not that I have asked for a blank - but thanks for the identification.

Just for my curiosity: Why exactly is it so hard/"impossible" to get such keys duplicated?

As far as I know there are no active patents any more so everyone could manufacture blanks.

Coming from a computer security background I generally wonder what prevents people from copying these keys (Kerckhoff's principle!): All you need is on the key itself, that should be trivial to do for someone with a little bit dexterity ... why is a blank even needed in the first place?

Even if ... how does it come that there are no dubious companies manufacturing duplicates of blanks (and maybe even keys themselves)?

And now, even if there were some patents [1], how does it come that the black market is not swamped with the respective blanks?

Can't wrap my head around that ... how a key like that can be deemed "high security" at all. Having said that, RFID based systems are not perfect (I'm developer of those ICs) but cloning an RFID chip seems like a complete different story (at least to me).


[1] And these patents seem sooooo ridiculous to me: I know about one patent (Best Cormax) - as far as I understand they "patented" nothing more than removing 4mm of metal at some particular spot on the key/blank. How creative! I even wonder how this can be patented.

Hi Lukas,

This is a touchy subject and I know you don't know this because you are new here. But I will try to explain.

There are at least two security devices built into a regular pin tumbler key.
1) the sequence of cuts on the key. The hills and valleys that you can see from the side.
2) the end-on profile of the key that is machined into the blank.

If you look at a keyway of a lock, the reason it is all wavy is because of it's unique profile, the profile of the blank.

The code of the key dictates the hills and valleys. But the end-on profile is the one that comes on the blank. If you try to use the incorrect code on a key, it will go into the lock but it won't actuate it. If you try the wrong blank, it won't even fit into the lock in first place.

Many companies have proprietary blanks that are only sold to certain customers and not available to the public. This doesn't necessarily have to do with patents. It could only be that someone paid for a special key shape so that an employee of the company could not take their key and run down to the locksmith who would find a blank and copy it.

Here's the deal. You have very few posts here and your first post was asking about a restricted key. Most of the new members that come here asking about that sort of thing are asking why they can't copy a key to their dorm room, apt complex, office, etc. Keys that they have no business copying. This is the point of the unique profile. You will get the cold shoulder from many members here because the main consensus is, if you don't know what that is, you have no business asking about it.

Just letting you know some background on the subject.

[nick08037]

OK, maybe this will help, key control part of the accepted security of keys systems. Purchasers pay extra for various levels and steps are taken to accommodate this practice, it is my no means a perfect system. Just ask anyone that has had to replace a master key system do to key control integrity that has been compromised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_control

Key Control refers to various methods for making sure that certain keys are only used by authorized people. This is especially important for master key systems with lots of users.[1]

A system of key control needs to include strategies for keeping track of which keys are carried by which people, as well as strategies to prevent people from giving away copies of the keys to unauthorized users. The former may be as simple as assigning someone the job of keeping an up-to-date list on paper. A more complex system may require signatures and/or a monetary deposit. Preventing unauthorized copies typically falls into one of the following five levels.

Level 5 (lowest): ordinary unrestricted keys. This level relies on the honor system. You instruct the users not to make copies or loan keys and you trust them to comply. This is common for private residences.
Level 4 (low): unrestricted keys marked "Do Not Duplicate". These keys can theoretically be copied anywhere, but many stores will refuse to copy them. This is a very low-level deterrent which ALOA calls "deceptive because it provides a false sense of security".[2]
Level 3 (medium): restricted keys. These keys are not generally available at retail outlets and often can only be obtained through a single source. The supplier has their own rules in place to prevent unauthorized duplication.
Level 2 (high): patented keys. By definition, patented keys are restricted. They also have the added feature of being protected by patent law. Anyone who manages to replicate such a key without permission of the patent holder could face financial penalties.
Level 1 (highest): factory-only patented keys. These keys cannot be cut locally. In addition to the restrictions above, users must send an authorization request to the factory to have additional keys cut and strict records are kept of each key.

[lh324]

Once again, I did neither ask for a blank nor for help to duplicate the key.
You helped me to find out the type of key (this is what I asked), thank you for that!

As for the following questions, I can imagine it is a "touchy" topic but noone is forced to answer anyway.
I am still confused by the level of security of these keys.

Regarding cheerIO's answer: I think I am aware of the two security devices.
But both of them can be seen on a macroscopic level. I can hardly imagine that it can be difficult to just duplicate them with a bit of craftsmanship (I don't have it so I certainly can't do it).
And if this is the case I wonder about all the fuzz around the "security".
(Clearly, I believe a lock is secure as long as only one person has access to a key).
Or is it really harder?
I just wonder, there is a black market for everything, why not for locks?

Regarding nick08037 answer: Indeed it seems to me that the whole system is honor based. Even for Level 1 ("These keys cannot be cut locally"). Why not? If I have the original key, what prevents it from being done?

[cheerIO]

Regarding nick08037 answer: Indeed it seems to me that the whole system is honor based. Even for Level 1 ("These keys cannot be cut locally"). Why not? If I have the original key, what prevents it from being done?

Sorry, but I still don't think you understand.

The blanks with their profile are the raw material.

Cutting a key to code, cutting the hills and valleys are what key machines do. Not forming blanks.

Even locksmiths can only cut a key to code, they can not make a blank with the unique profile. (99% of them in the US can't)
They buy readily available blanks and cut keys from them.

[lh324]

Sorry, but I still don't think you understand.

The blanks with their profile are the raw material.

Cutting a key to code, cutting the hills and valleys are what key machines do. Not forming blanks.

Even locksmiths can only cut a key to code, they can not make a blank with the unique profile. (99% of them in the US can't)
They buy readily available blanks and cut keys from them.

Yeah, I think this is the point I do not understand. What is so hard in creating a blank?
It's just a piece of metal with macroscopic visible features. A CNC machine (as many makers/hobbyists have) should be able to just create one?
Once this is established, I wonder why there are no "bad guys" just doing that and selling them illegaly.

(It seems that it is "easy" to cut a key once a blank is available)

[cheerIO]

Well, you are correct on many points.

But I think this is moving a bit close to an "Advanced subject" so I'm gonna leave it to a moderator to comment before going more indepth.

[Squelchtone]

Once again, I did neither ask for a blank nor for help to duplicate the key.

I just wonder, there is a black market for everything, why not for locks?

yeah, you may not have asked for a blank or help duplicating a key but you keep circling back to illegal copies and why there isn't a black market for restricted key blanks. Even if this is some mental exercise or theoretical question, for a new member with only this thread under your belt, you're asking things that make a lot of flags go up on our end.

its very idealistic to think, heck anyone can go buy a cnc machine on deal extreme and machine their own restricted blanks, well.. yeah on paper.. not everyone is a trained machinist, and who wants to spend $500-$5000 on the gear to make a duplicate key? it isn't financially viable, and there are so many different restricted blanks out there that it would not be worth for some pirate bay of key making to stock a wall of several hundred different blanks that some potential customer may require 1 of.

you said your key was supposed to be high security.. who told you that exactly? people use that term very loosely.. it's a restricted blank, but that doesn't mean it is high security, just difficult to copy because you cannot walk into a hardware store and get a copy on your lunch break.

some companies will market a lock as high security and one of the features may be a restricted blank, so you could say having restricted or patented blanks is part of the entire package.

[MBI]

As Squelchtone said, it's all about the money. To get a utility patent a key needs to have a FUNCTIONAL difference, not merely have a different keyway shape. It's not patents that keep alternative manufacturers from making blanks for all the random restricted keyways on the market, it's a lack of demand.

There ARE some older, proprietary or restricted blanks that are available from generic sources but generally it's only the ones that had locks sold in large enough numbers to be worth the bother of doing it. A miniscule percentage.

[billdeserthills]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the "Easy Entrie" key machine. This machine can analyze the millings on a clients key and then make a blank to fit it exactly.
Unfortunately the machine costs about $15,000 so I can't justify having one in my shop.
I have in the past used my milling machine to copy blanks for a bunch of old medeco restricted cam locks, but they are all past the patent date
It really is a lot of work to do for just a couple of duplicate keys

[Zenophryk]

I have a CNC machine. It would probably take me a few hours to design the key blank if I has an example of one in my hands. And then probably 5 minutes or so to mill both sides of a piece of brass stock. Then I would have a Blank I would be able to sell. But where would I sell it and how much could I get for it? There's Ebay of course, But there's not many people out there that are going to know what to look for unless they are a locksmith. And I doubt a locksmith is going to even try.
So yea, I'm not seeing enough of a financial benefit to this potential black market venture. Of course if someone came to me and said "can you make me 500 of these for $5.00 each?" that would change things.

So you are right lh324, anything made by Man can be copied by Man. But it doesn't mean it will be.

-Zenophryk