Ok I mastered my kwikset so I went out to get another cheap lock and bought a defiant double cylinder deadbolt. I open it up and guess what? The pins (both driver and key) and the springs look exactly the same as the kwikset pins that I already own. Same lengths for #2 and everything. The hulls look a lot different though. My guess is that both companies are subcontracting the pin manufacturing to a smaller company then slapping their own hulls on it. Has anyone else seen this or am I just not making close enough measurments of the two pins?
From what I can tell, the Defiant locks are exactly the same as Kwikset. The ones I've seen use the same key blank as well (1176 as I recall). I think the Defiant is just a proprietary branding for a Kwikset lock. Could it be Walmart, or Home Depot? I don't remember.
I can attest from my own personal experience of diassembling several Defiant lock five-pin cylinders that the bottom pins were identical to the ones used by Kwikset.
I happen to also own a Kwikset Number 272 rekeying kit, so it was easy for me to tell how the Defiant pins were sized just like the Kwikset pins. To me this only makes sense, since the Defiant keyway and keyblank are identical to that of Kwikset also.
The one difference between the Defiant cylinder's pins and Kwikset's is that it seems that Defiant cylinders now have ONE spool top pin positioned closest to the keyway opening, followed by four regular top pins, while the lowest grade Kwikset cylinders still have five regular top pins.
kepiblanc wrote:The one difference between the Defiant cylinder's pins and Kwikset's is that it seems that Defiant cylinders now have ONE spool top pin positioned closest to the keyway opening
I thought that this positioning was bad for the lock and smooth operation of the key?
kepiblanc wrote:The one difference between the Defiant cylinder's pins and Kwikset's is that it seems that Defiant cylinders now have ONE spool top pin positioned closest to the keyway opening
I thought that this positioning was bad for the lock and smooth operation of the key?
lockedin,
When one fully inserts a properly cut key inside a lock cylinder, it really would not matter if just one or several of the top pins were of the pick-resistant variety. This is because the cuts of key would always push the pins to the correct height, so as to meet the shear line and allow the plug to rotate.
At the recent HOPE Number Six conference, I asked Barry the Key what sense it would make for a lock manufacturer like Defiant to make a cylinder with just one spool top pin and four regular top pins. He told me the likeliest reason for this is simply because spool pins are more expensive to produce, and that this was done to lower production costs.
Defiant deadbolt lock sets are commonly sold at The Home Depot chain stores all throughout the USA and probably Canada, too, and they are in fact the cheapest lock sets sold at these stores, with the price being less than even ten dollars for the single cylinder models.
(Whilst living in Toronto last year, I forgot to check whether The Home Depot store there sold Defiant lock sets. Can anybody confirm for me that Defiants are actually sold in Canada?)
Kepiblanc,
Thanks for your response. I wasn't taking issue with multiple pins, I have just seen posted many times on this site that it is deleterious to the lock to put a security pin in the top pin nearest the entrance of the lock.
kepiblanc wrote:The one difference between the Defiant cylinder's pins and Kwikset's is that it seems that Defiant cylinders now have ONE spool top pin positioned closest to the keyway opening
I thought that this positioning was bad for the lock and smooth operation of the key?
lockedin,
When one fully inserts a properly cut key inside a lock cylinder,
IF one CAN fully insert a properly cut key. I think the reason for not putting a security pin as number 1 top pin is because even though these pins are small and should just move up and down, there is always some play and pins tend to change angle like a tree about to fall over. If a top pin in number 1 was a mushroom shaped pin and the key was inserted into the lock, depending on the cuts on the key, there exists a possibility of lifting the first pin stack straight up, and since the pin diameter and hole diameter allows enough gap for the pins to rise without friction, they also allow the key pin to change angle, so that it's flat top is no longer flat to the top pin, and that top mushroom pin becomes unstable and tilts inside and may bind up at the shear line which would at that moment stop the key from smoothly or fully inserting all the way to the shoulder.
I'm not able to test this right now, but I believe this is why so much has been said on not putting security pins in the first stack. I did see at HOPE that one of the American Lock padlocks had serrated key pin in stack 1. The American series 50 I took apart here last month had serrated pins in 1 for the key and driven pins, but I noticed the serrations were not as deep as the other pins. Perhaps American Lock knew enough not to make the grooves so deep because they had trouble inserting keys.
I do agree with you that if the key was a correct combination of highs and lows you could probably get the key in and at that point it wouldn't matter if pin stack 1 was loaded with mushrooms.
You were at HOPE Number Six? I was in the Lock Picking Village for much of my time there, so I'm now wondering if we chatted. Did you have a collection of your own padlocks with you? Somebody that weekend showed me how easy it was to actually open a Master Number 6230 Solid Steel padlock.
You were at HOPE Number Six? I was in the Lock Picking Village for much of my time there, so I'm now wondering if we chatted. Did you have a collection of your own padlocks with you? Somebody that weekend showed me how easy it was to actually open a Master Number 6230 Solid Steel padlock.
I think I picked mine, and then grabbed another 6230 and picked that one too? I remember you, I think I got to shake hands with you and six other guys.
Here's the shirt I was wearing, and the lock you picked is laying on it. =)
Squelchtone wrote:IF one CAN fully insert a properly cut key. I think the reason for not putting a security pin as number 1 top pin is because even though these pins are small and should just move up and down, there is always some play and pins tend to change angle like a tree about to fall over. If a top pin in number 1 was a mushroom shaped pin and the key was inserted into the lock, depending on the cuts on the key, there exists a possibility of lifting the first pin stack straight up, and since the pin diameter and hole diameter allows enough gap for the pins to rise without friction, they also allow the key pin to change angle, so that it's flat top is no longer flat to the top pin, and that top mushroom pin becomes unstable and tilts inside and may bind up at the shear line which would at that moment stop the key from smoothly or fully inserting all the way to the shoulder.
I'm not able to test this right now, but I believe this is why so much has been said on not putting security pins in the first stack. I did see at HOPE that one of the American Lock padlocks had serrated key pin in stack 1. The American series 50 I took apart here last month had serrated pins in 1 for the key and driven pins, but I noticed the serrations were not as deep as the other pins. Perhaps American Lock knew enough not to make the grooves so deep because they had trouble inserting keys.
I do agree with you that if the key was a correct combination of highs and lows you could probably get the key in and at that point it wouldn't matter if pin stack 1 was loaded with mushrooms.
Anyone care to comment, correct or elaborate?
Squelchtone
I really didn't want my first post here be like this, but I do own a Defiant Rekeyable door handle lock that didn't work when installed in the door. However, when I got the key mechanism out of the door handle, I could turn the lock just fine. It's now waiting to be transformed into a challenge lock.
However, to the overall question, I have four keys to the lock, and none of them come with the lock (in other words, they were made by Home Depot). I can use the keys normally, but, if my hearing is to be trusted, I usually hear and feel a bit of resistance when the key clicks three times (I assume that it is pin 3) into the core. So, I don't know if that is an indication of some form of serrated pins or mushroom pins, but I definitely feel some resistance three clicks into the core.
I am not a registered Locksmith. I study locks as a hobby.
billdeserthills wrote:Many times the key will be miscut, as many hardware store employees are not particularly adept at cutting keys
That's true, but the issue with my lock stems from the door not wanting to open, sans key. Here is video evidence that suggest once I got everything disassembled, the key operation worked fine. Note: Please excuse the poor audio issues, I was recording from a cellphone on five minutes notice.
Also for the record, my keys were all Axxess+ 66 keys.
I am not a registered Locksmith. I study locks as a hobby.
