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EVVA MCS disassembly pictures

European hardware -lever locks, profile cylinders specific for European locks. European lock picks and European locks.

Postby zeke79 » 10 Mar 2006 2:49

mh wrote:
And that's a good thing.

Suppose everybody had 13 fingers,
they would think that 6 x 9 = 42.
Nobody would understand Douglas Adams' jokes...

:D mh


:lol:
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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Postby eric343 » 10 Mar 2006 3:19

Nice job!
It is indeed a heck of a lock. Fairly rare, too -- where'd you find it?

There is a bounty on this lock. If you can pick one, a friend of mine will pay $$ plus R&D costs for the rights to the design of the pick.
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Postby mh » 10 Mar 2006 3:27

eric343 wrote:Nice job!
It is indeed a heck of a lock. Fairly rare, too -- where'd you find it?


Well, living in Germany, it's just around the corner from Austria - where EVVA has their headquarters and the locks are very popular,
and in that case, somebody sold a used deadbolt on ebay.de or ebay.at, with a picture and no clear description, so - my bargain :)
Cheers,
mh
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EVVA MCS quadrillion???

Postby greyman » 10 Mar 2006 6:55

MH - are you saying that EVVA packs 25 different angles onto each rotor? That is a lot more than I thought there might be, but I confess I don't know. 25 different angles means slightly less than 15 degrees between differs on the magnets. This is certainly not impossible, since Abloy uses 15 degrees for its keys. However aligning a disc by mechanical contact and algining a magnetic rotor are not the same thing. Can someone confirm how many angle settings are used per rotor in the EVVA MCS?

By the way, on that quadrillion thing, I took the number off an EVVA brochure - as I recall it said 299 quadrillion but also had the number with the zeros bannered across the top of the page. So it was indeed bogus! The marketing guys are not off the hook yet. :wink:
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Re: EVVA MCS quadrillion???

Postby mh » 10 Mar 2006 11:19

greyman wrote:MH - are you saying that EVVA packs 25 different angles onto each rotor? That is a lot more than I thought there might be, but I confess I don't know. 25 different angles means slightly less than 15 degrees between differs on the magnets. This is certainly not impossible, since Abloy uses 15 degrees for its keys. However aligning a disc by mechanical contact and algining a magnetic rotor are not the same thing. Can someone confirm how many angle settings are used per rotor in the EVVA MCS?


I'm not sure, I only have 1 lock (out of their 1st generation).

On that lock, all magnet combinations (key magnets & rotors) align in 45 degree positions. But that of course doesn't mean *it has* to be done that way. Esp. not for marketing purposes...
Should they sell enough locks, they might change that...

The rotors in my lock turn without noticeable friction, dirt won't reach them, and wear & tear can't be expected either,
so I would assume that it's actually more precise than the mechanical contact in Abloy locks.

And as explained above: The 'width' of he gate is not 45 degrees but only about 25 degrees. So turning the key magnet by 14.4 degrees will indeed block the sidebar.
So I guess EVVA could indeed use 25 variations per rotor.

I just don't know if they do....

Cheers,
mh
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Postby eric343 » 10 Mar 2006 15:41

There are 8 possible rotational positions.

The 299 quadrillion is across the 8 different discs, 7 sliders (top and bottom), and ball bearings that can be in different positions and possibly different sizes.

While one side of the key has a different magnetic code than the other side, the key only contains 4 magnets. Evva uses a proprietary process to magnetize one face of the magnet differently than the other side. You cannot therefore take a key apart and change the code on the key (the lock can only be serviced by the factory).
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Postby mh » 10 Mar 2006 17:07

eric343 wrote:There are 8 possible rotational positions.

The 299 quadrillion is across the 8 different discs, 7 sliders (top and bottom), and ball bearings that can be in different positions and possibly different sizes.


But with 8 rotor positions (8 ^ 8 = 16,777,216) and the rest you will never end up at 299 x 10 ^ 15, right?
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Postby eric343 » 10 Mar 2006 17:48

Well, I did some plugging around on my calculator, and to get 250 quadrillion differs with 8 rotational positions on 8 discs you'd need the sliders to have 9 possible positions along with 5 possible ball-bearing spots each having 5 possible state (empty and 4 different heights).

If the sliders have a maximum horizontal travel of 4mm, that means milling the key and sliders to +/-.22mm. The ball bearings have a little less travel, maybe 2mm, so that mechanism would have to be precise to +/-.2mm.

The machine tools I've seen were generally limited to +/-.001", or +/- .0254mm. Therefore, I'm guessing the lock would be manufacturable. I may have made an error in my math, though, or made unreasonable assumptions about permissible error.
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Postby mh » 10 Mar 2006 18:08

Well, of course I trust your math :) (Location = MIT... It's not Aachen, but still... SCNR :) )

But the key is 2mm wide, and I think for all practical purposes that limits the travel of the sliders to 2mm, and I assume it's unreasonable for EVVA to claim 9 different positions on 2mm. The sliders do touch the key and will get dirty and will wear and so on.

I still think that if EVVA wants to show many possible variations, they will use the rotors.

BTW, what's the base of your assumption on only 8 possible rotational positions?
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Postby eric343 » 10 Mar 2006 19:33

I had a feeling that .22mm figure couldn't be right...

I measure a thickness of 2.33mm on the part of the key that operates the sliders. The ridge along which the sliders ride is 0.8mm thick, for an operating range of 1.53mm.

To give you an idea of the accuracy to which this lock was made, I was unable to find any variation in the diameter of the discs (measured on the plastic carrier) between two randomly selected discs using a Starrett 722 digital caliper.
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Postby eric343 » 10 Mar 2006 19:49

The ball bearings have a travel of about 1.7mm, so figure about +/-.197mm there.

Oh, and there are also keyway profiles! I don't know how many of these are possible, but if you examine the large image here: http://www.chez.com/montmartre/mcs.html
there's definitely profile.

My assumption about 8 possible rotational positions comes from the 8 sectors into which the carriers on the two MCS locks I have are divided. On the master-keyed discs, the gates are always in those sectors.
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Postby mh » 11 Mar 2006 3:46

eric343 wrote:My assumption about 8 possible rotational positions comes from the 8 sectors into which the carriers on the two MCS locks I have are divided. On the master-keyed discs, the gates are always in those sectors.


When I first saw these discs, I made the same assumption.
But when I read th 299 quadrillion claim, I thought again, and came to this idea:
Assuming EVVA only uses this type of plastic rotor carrier with the 8 sectors - what conclusion can you draw from that?
1) There are 8 possible rotational positions of key vs. plastic rotor, each in 45 degree steps; n of these positions can have a 'gate'.
1a) From one valid key in a masterkeyed system to another, only key magnet rotations of n x 45 degrees are possible.

There is no conclusion on key magnet vs. plastic rotor, though.
That might vary by smaller steps.

Thinking of that, this offers interesting options in key 'blank' control:
As you mentioned, there are only 4 magnets in each key, not 8,
if EVVA were to sell key blanks and special magnets to locksmiths, for them to make their own locks, they could restrict magnetization options between the sides of each magnet, leaving some odd non-45-degree options for the factory only...
I think that's a highly theoretical case, but an interesting idea :)

Another thing:
Are you sure that they use both the passive sliders and the balls in one lock? I would be very interested in seeing one (do you have a picture? :wink: ). My current assumption is that both systems don't fit into the same lock. And that the balls were used in the 1st generation and the sliders in the 2nd generation.
I have a 1st generation MCS lock like the one shown on http://www.chez.com/montmartre/mcs.html, and the balls have only two variations: Notch in key present or not present. Since this is a system where the key becomes locked in a 30 degree position when the notches are too big (as opposed to a normal pin tumbler system where the plug won't turn with the wrong heigth of cut), that would not be the system where you could use small tolerances to create many variations either.

Again, I would be very interested to see pictures from a lock which show that my assumptions are wrong :D

Cheers,
mh
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Postby eric343 » 11 Mar 2006 5:09

I have two MCS locks in front of me (keyed differently) that have both sliders and balls. I'll post pictures when I have time to shoot some...
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Postby n2oah » 14 May 2006 17:19

eric343 wrote:I have two MCS locks in front of me (keyed differently) that have both sliders and balls. I'll post pictures when I have time to shoot some...


That would be excellent.
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EVVA MCS

Postby greyman » 15 May 2006 5:42

Actually I just dismantled an MCS on the weekend. It's rather nice how they get the magnetic rotors to stick in their little holes. The cylinder plug is brass and there's a stainless steel cover to anchor the rotors. What's interesting is there's a little ring made of steel (I think) in the bottom of the housing for each rotor. The magnet is attracted to this ring and this keeps the rotors from popping out of their holes to grab the rotor next to them. Because it's a ring, I guess it doesn't affect the rotation that you need for the key to work. Without these little rings, it would be a nightmare to assemble the plug - the magnets are so strong that you can't bring them within 2 cm of each other or they stick together.
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