Help, I'm probably an idiot...

by **Schuyler** » 24 Jul 2006 10:38

I did manage to get it turned back to it's normal position, that was the point it failed at. Sorry if I missed that in my original post, or if I've misunderstood what you're saying.

by **qwerty125** » 24 Jul 2006 15:57

Can someone explain why this would happen? I had a simliar expereience when I picked a lock back when I first started.. I thought it was because I put too much pressure on the torque and some how warped the pins but now that I'm thinking about it, I don't see how that would prevent the pins from going up. Anyone care to explain in more detail ?

by **Krypos** » 24 Jul 2006 16:51

i did the same thing to my ifrst practice lock. what I* did, was that i was hoping to repin it to make it easier to practice on, but i took the slide off the wrong side, so when i turned the plug, the key pins fell out, and the driver pins fell into the plug when i turned it. so then the key pins are out, and the driver pins cant go back into the shell because of the springs forcing them down. so i had two choices, over set all the pins and reset the lock, or figure something else out. i soon realized i could take the top slide off and remove all the pins and all would be fine when i repinned it.

what i think happened here:

on the bottom of many locks, there is a plastic spacer for th bottom. (im not even sure why, but mine does) and if that is removed and the plug is turned, then the key pins get stuck in there (they fall into a 2mm gap) and even if the key is in, it cant do anything because gravity keeps them down. well, the plug is now stuck upside down. and is stuck.

so i guess the only possible way to open the lock from there, is to essentially BUMP the key pins UP somehow, while applying tension. then open the lock and repair/replace.

good luck

by **Raccoon** » 24 Jul 2006 17:09

I'm not sure about a plastic spacer-- I can't picture what you're refering to...

However, essentially, when you rotate a plug 180Â° and it jams, this is because the driver pins got stuck in the bottom of the keyway. In some locks, like dimple locks, the lock will spew its guts into the keyway... but with pin-tumbler locks, the drivers usually shoot down until they hit a ward in the keyway. Pressing them back into their chambers will usually work, but really small master key wafers can shoot even further into the keyway and become lost-- good luck determining which pin stack the wafer belonged to without taking the whole thing apart and keying it.

by **sturmgrenadier** » 24 Jul 2006 18:49

Hey Folks. It's nice to see some more new pickers joining in the discussion. I guess in a morbid sense, it's nice to know that other people are fumbling around some, too (ok, I admit that it's alot in my case:). The best analogy I can come up with to express this feeling of 'misery in good company' is having to spend a couple of weeks at those god awful summer camps when you were a kid. About the only solace you could take from your predicament was the fact that you were no more miserable than most of the other kids:)

Hey, for any of you fellas (gals) who have played around with MAster Padlocks, have you found that sometimes the pins don't fully unset when you re lock the shackle. I ask this because sometimes when I successfully pick my no.1, it opens with such ease (only two levering up motions) and I seem to get on a roll, opening easily and uquickly several times in succession. I now make a habit of twisting the cylinder a bit in both directions before restarting just to make sure that the pins have all unset, but it doesn't seem to have any effect. ist relocking the shackle enough to assure that you are strating form scratch with picking?

by **sturmgrenadier** » 24 Jul 2006 18:56

Also, I just want to comment a bit on the 'streakiness' of what little lockpicking success I have thus far achieved. I tried to recreat my encouraging success with opening my master lock no.1 this morning. And for about an hour and a half, it was an utter disaster. By some miracle, I managed to get it open once. And as strange as this sounds, like vodoo, it just felt different than yesterday. Anyway after lunch and some other errands, I came back to it just in the past couple of hours and I have been having much more success (not quite as well as yesterday), but several openings and often one after the other. As i stated in my previous post, I don't know if maybe i am 'cheating' because the pins aren't completely unsetting each time I relock. I'm not sure how the lock can open with only two lever motions for example. At any rate, I was just curious if any of you other new pickers have this 'streaky' learning curve or do have you found that once you reach a level of competency on a lock/skill, you can reproduce it firaly consistently.

by **Deathadder** » 24 Jul 2006 19:00

i remember this being in the mit guide to lockpicking, it says that if its master keyed, (which it probably is because its an apartment) the spacers for the key will get stuck in the keyway, if you have a broken key extractor you could probably take the cylinder out of the lock and get the spacers out, then just repin it (make sure you know what pins go where), then again your springs might be shot.
i dont know if this helps, but hey, im new and just tryin to help some people out

by **Deathadder** » 24 Jul 2006 19:04

sturmgrenadier wrote:Also, I just want to comment a bit on the 'streakiness' of what little lockpicking success I have thus far achieved. I tried to recreat my encouraging success with opening my master lock no.1 this morning. And for about an hour and a half, it was an utter disaster. By some miracle, I managed to get it open once. And as strange as this sounds, like vodoo, it just felt different than yesterday. Anyway after lunch and some other errands, I came back to it just in the past couple of hours and I have been having much more success (not quite as well as yesterday), but several openings and often one after the other.

This used to happen to me, i would be picking everything in a heartbeat one day, then nothing the next, but what i found out to be more consistent is to listen very closely and be as sensitive and as gentle with the lock as you can, if you cant feel the pins set, then i use a little bit more tension and that helps me. all you have to to is try remembering what works and what doesnt. hope that helps, it does for me

by **Squelchtone** » 25 Jul 2006 6:58

Schuyler wrote:I did manage to get it turned back to it's normal position, that was the point it failed at. Sorry if I missed that in my original post, or if I've misunderstood what you're saying.

Hi Schuyler,

At first I though you picked the lock in the wrong direction, which would give you about 90 degrees rotation, then get stuck. But it does seem you turned about 180 and it got stuck because the springs managed to push the top pins down into the keyway. If you live in an apt bldg with just 2 units, I doubt it's master pinned. I have a picture of a padlock core that had the same problem of top pins coming into the keyway while you rotate. Let me know if you tried putting a flat piece of metal on the top and or bottom of the keyway inside the lock to push the pins back in, and at the same time use a tension wrench to rotate the plug (as if you had a real key inserted)

here's a pic I just modified and color coded, and annotated to help you visualize what probably happened inside your lock:

...and if you do not have wrench like the one in the photo, improvise with the flat side of one of those HOPE 6 picks. you wont be able to insert your HOPE 6 wrenches since they are bend at both ends.

Best of luck,
Squelchtone

by **sturmgrenadier** » 27 Jul 2006 0:50

Nice visual. Idiot proof even for me:) In opening up some of these olf lock cylinders I bought to repin them, I have found these 'master' pins in some of them. If I'm a beginner stil learning to feel the pins, do you think if's sensible to eschew them for now? Do they really have any impact on learning to lockpick? Can a master pin give you a false set feeling or is the spring pressure enough to make it flush/continuous with the pin to the point that it won't snag?

by **Raccoon** » 27 Jul 2006 3:05

Master wafer-pins should not making picking any harder. Actually, they make it easier to pick a lock because each wafer adds a new shear line to the lock. If you had 2 pin stacks with a key pin, master wafer, and top pin, they would add 3 additional shear lines to the lock. If all 5 pin stacks had a master wafer, it would add 31 new shear lines! That's 32 possible ways to pick the lock.

The only thing this may cause is making the lock too easy to pick and hampering your true skill potential.

by **Deathadder** » 27 Jul 2006 17:32

Raccoon wrote:Master wafer-pins should not making picking any harder. Actually, they make it easier to pick a lock because each wafer adds a new shear line to the lock. If you had 2 pin stacks with a key pin, master wafer, and top pin, they would add 3 additional shear lines to the lock. If all 5 pin stacks had a master wafer, it would add 31 new shear lines! That's 32 possible ways to pick the lock.

... i think you would have to push all the pins up to the same shear line though... correct me if im wrong....

by **Raccoon** » 27 Jul 2006 17:39

A shear line is a shear line. Thatâ€™s why master key systems can be vulnerable to cross-key attacks if not done right. You are lowering the total number of available combinations with each pin stack you add a wafer to... this is why large institutions use multiple keyways because they run out of good combinations due to many master and sub-master keys.

by **Deathadder** » 27 Jul 2006 18:27

ohhhhhhhh, thanks for clearin that up racoon

by **Schuyler** » 27 Jul 2006 19:49

Squelchtone! I saw your shirt at HOPE, which, of course, means that I saw you at HOPE, but it was your shirt that stood out to me. Thank you for the visual. I'm letting the realtor take care of the problem for the time being, but that diagram is awesome. Thank you! Helps me understand the problem.

Raccoon: thanks, also, for all of that. I am continually amazed by the level of knowledge and the demeanor of the folks on this forum.

Glad I found my way here. Thanks again.

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