Making an unpickable Lock

by **scientist** » 22 Apr 2004 10:50

I have been looking into trying to find out about high security locks so I can attempt to design a neat lock of my own...mostly for the heck of it, a little bit from tradtion (my great grandfather was a swedish locksmith)...but I cant seem to find anyone willing to put out any info on new ideas...probably because of "company secrets" and the like

Anyone have any ideas for me? So far I have come up with schematics for something similar to a barrel lock. Right now im only working on security by obscurity...itd be nice to know some more about what directions other people have gone in

By the way, I am not a complete idiot...I do have about 4 years of experience picking regular tumbler locks, and about half a year of experience playing with disc combination locks (got a safe for $1 at a tag sale without a combo...that was an experience...)..I also have a steel forge, a lathe and drill press to try and make this stuff

-sCi

by **ReverseLogic** » 22 Apr 2004 14:04

You may have some trouble getting much feedback with this. I know if I had any sort of 'unpickable' design I would probably be at the patent office rather than here.

As for the security through obscurity idea, I would try to find a different method, because as soon the design of the lock is figured out, there goes any sort of security it may have offered. First of all, I would figure out if I were going to go with an entirely new type of locking mechanism, or just a refinement on previous technologies. I myself would prefer to go with the former, but due to my lack of creativity, I would probably stick with the latter. If sticking with the latter, I would first look at the basic design of the lock, and see what flaws allow a person to compromise it. I would then rack my brain to see what I could alter about the lock that would prevent such an occurence, while still allowing the lock to function normally. This is, as I imagine, the process that lead to the development of spool pins, and other such anti-picking measures.

The only other advice I can give you is machine your parts as precisely as possible. The more flaws in the lock, the easier it is to compromise. With that, I'll good luck.

-RL

by **Chucklz** » 22 Apr 2004 14:53

No design of mechanical lock is inherently "unpickable" so I would forget about that as a goal. Concentrate on making a lock thats very hard to pick, but can be used in rugged/dirty environments. Definately seems to be a niche in which only a few locks currently fit.

by **Ice** » 22 Apr 2004 17:38

I would think that combining a variety of different 'types' of locks, at odd shapes/angles would probably do the trick. The keyway would probably be very thin as well with the wards very close together... have fun though!

by **WhiteHat** » 22 Apr 2004 18:02

this was sort of discussed here:

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=2408 have a read and see if it helps any.

I'd also be interested in throwing arround ideas for new locks. I do the same for cryptography systems sometimes because most of them have a fundamental flaw that can be exploited to crack them, (same as locks).

by **Chucklz** » 22 Apr 2004 21:30

I still maintain that if you could make a high security padlock that would say.... still operate if it was securing some Iraqi oilfield (hint hint) you really would have the market.

I would suggest some sidebar mechanism... so that you dont have to rely on super small parts or ultra high tolerances.

by **CitySpider** » 23 Apr 2004 1:02

I just can't let a thread like this show up without saying that there's no such thing as an unpickable lock. If a key can open it, someone will find a way to simulate the key.

by **technik** » 24 Apr 2004 0:26

thought id add this here instead of adding a new post (oh, thats right marso's gone, I can do it!!!) anyway, Ive read several times in manuals that no lock has holes that are perfectly inline, as it would be to costly to manufacture. But what if someone had the money? I've been thinking about it, and if they are all inline, then wouldn't you NEED a key to open it, because the pins cannot catch on the sheer line if they are all inline. Mind you, it would have to be bloddy perfect, coz even the slightest mis-alignment would make the lock pickable, however, it could be done. Whaddya reckon??

by **scientist** » 24 Apr 2004 1:40

the inherent isue there is the softness and impurity of the metal, once the lock had any pressure on it there would be small random indentations caused by pockets of impuritites

Unpickable meaning it would be impractical.

-sCi

by **CitySpider** » 24 Apr 2004 2:00

technik wrote:thought id add this here instead of adding a new post (oh, thats right marso's gone, I can do it!!!) anyway, Ive read several times in manuals that no lock has holes that are perfectly inline, as it would be to costly to manufacture. But what if someone had the money? I've been thinking about it, and if they are all inline, then wouldn't you NEED a key to open it, because the pins cannot catch on the sheer line if they are all inline. Mind you, it would have to be bloddy perfect, coz even the slightest mis-alignment would make the lock pickable, however, it could be done. Whaddya reckon??

Then one of us would just need to cobble together a pick that lifts all the pins at once, rather than a pick that can lift one at a time. Wouldn't be all that hard, really. Just like a tubular pick, but horizontal.

by **technik** » 24 Apr 2004 2:31

but still, which pin would you lift first, and how would you know it has set?

by **salzi684** » 24 Apr 2004 2:42

A set of picks like these would still be able to defeat the lock http://www.lockpicks.com/product.asp?0=204&1=224&3=32 . I highly doubt that it would be possible to manufacture a standard pin tumbler lock to such high tolerances that it would be impossible to pick. Even if all the holes were lined up you have to remember the principal that all materials, on a small enough scale, behave like springs. So therefore even if all of the holes were drilled perfectly the fact that the pins will act like springs when a shearing force is applied it should still be theoretically possible to pick the lock using standard methods.

by **jimprice** » 24 Apr 2004 16:25

Some of the more pick resistant locks use rotating pins like medeco
others have incorporated an extra set of pins and a side bar
the more exotic use magnets like miwa
and even more pick resistant is the MCS cylinder by Evva which uses rotating magnets
http://www.evva.com/McsFrameE.htm

by **Chucklz** » 24 Apr 2004 16:55

Uh oh....
Evva said

picking is impossible

I wonder how long that claim will stand.

by **Varjeal** » 24 Apr 2004 18:07

Here's an idea I read about to make standard locks even more pick resistant:

Remove the pin chamber cover from the lock and all springs, drivers and bottom pins. Take a 6/32 thread tap and tap a few threads into one, two, (or even all) upper pin chambers. Reinstall all your parts, and try picking that.

Without lifting all the pins to the correct height at the same time, you'll have even standard pins "hanging up" slightly on the threaded portion of the pin chambers, so you can imagine what will happen with serrated, shroom, and spool pins.

How's THAT for a challenge?

Making an unpickable Lock

Making an unpickable Lock

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