Expected lifetime on L&F tubularlocks??

[rohi]

I'f supplyed some 800 tubular locks to a school over the past 5 years, and lately they start to fail in disturbing numbers.
They're used on studentlockers, so there's a high frequency usage.

They are 7-pin tubular camlocks 4314 with a masterkey system.

What lifetime should be expected from these?

I have yet to determine the age of the failing locks,
but your input will be very much appriciated.

Thanks in advance,

Ronald

[rohi]

As additional information, they all get stuck one pin short of where it should be to remove the key.

The janitor (spelling?) yanks out the key, pryed the door open and places a new lock.

I opened one up, no damage or dirt. Looks like a normal functioning lock.(that is, untill i lost one spring and bottom pin after it exploded in my face )

Ronald

[mh]

I would guess that the problem comes from wear.

And because they are master-keyed, I would think that in some locks the pinstacks have very thin discs, and that they move with the plug to the wrong pin stack. At that position, wear is different, and they stay there and block the lock.

If you can make the janitor leave the key inside the lock when he opens the door and removes the lock, you could open the lock carefully and find out if that's the case. (Or what else happened to the lock anyway.)
Just don't let the springs fly around... You might want to consider cutting part of the key off, so that you can keep the important part inside the plug all the time while pulling the lock apart.

Cheers,
mh

[keysman]

We have a customer who owns a game arcade, uses 7 pin tubular almost exclusively.. not sure how many games total but at least 200.

We supply 30 - 50 new locks @ month and drill out 10 -15 @ month, the notch where the key indexes wears out and the pins jam.

The locks are opened 20 - 30 times a day for resets, counts ,or other service. I would be surprised if the locks actually last for 1000 openings ( by people who are always in a hurry ).

[mh]

We have a customer who owns a game arcade, uses 7 pin tubular almost exclusively.. not sure how many games total but at least 200.

We supply 30 - 50 new locks @ month and drill out 10 -15 @ month, the notch where the key indexes wears out and the pins jam.

The locks are opened 20 - 30 times a day for resets, counts ,or other service. I would be surprised if the locks actually last for 1000 openings ( by people who are always in a hurry ).

Don't tell your customer, but in general, wouldn't the proper thing be to replace those locks with something more durable, e.g. Abloy?

[keysman]

Don't tell your customer, but in general, wouldn't the proper thing be to replace those locks with something more durable, e.g. Abloy?

I have told them ...they don't care ....lots of cameras, security guards ect and the machines only accept tolkens,, so even if a customer / employee could get in they can only get free games and tolkens.

They keep buying tubular , we keep replacing them.. works for me ..

[rohi]

I would guess that the problem comes from wear.

And because they are master-keyed, I would think that in some locks the pinstacks have very thin discs, and that they move with the plug to the wrong pin stack. At that position, wear is different, and they stay there and block the lock.

It's not worn inside, and there are no small discs in it too.

(sorry for pic quality)
What i did find out though, is that it's possible to pull the key out in such a fashion that the plug can be turned back 1 pinspace, thus being unable to be opened with the key.
I filed of the notch down from one key, and the lock can than be operated as normal.
I still will place a call to L&F to ask if this is normal wear.

[mh]

Cool!

That looks like a dual-shear-line approach to masterkeying - I've never seen that (I haven't seen much anyway...) - can you explain more about it?

With your locks, obviously the keys wear down (not the locks) just as in keysman's setup.
Unfortunately, if I understand the dual-shear-line concept right, you cannot supply the janitor with a special masterkey, so that he could always open the lock... But maybe you can teach him to dremel the notch off the student's key...

Cheers,
mh

[mh]

Unfortunately, if I understand the dual-shear-line concept right, you cannot supply the janitor with a special masterkey,

hmm, I made the assumption that the 'master' shear-line is the second one (on the right of the picture) - but maybe that's not the case. In fact, if I was manufacturing them, I would use the left one, so that I could always use the same set of pins for the 'master' part.

Then of course you could file the notch of a master key away, and the janitor could at least open the locks without force.

Cheers,
mh

P.S.: Did you try self-impressioning on these locks (like a tubular pick)? That should be rather difficult...

[rohi]

LOL, i called the janitor this morning and told him exactly that.
Just file off the notch, and you can still use the locks.
Only downside is, it's possible to leave the locker open whitout leaving the key behind.

Another point is, if the kids realise it's possible to lock the door and leave the cilinder in the wrong position, they can lockout the janitor

I did send a couple of locks back to L&F today, just to find out what's wrong with them. I can't imagine they last less than 2 years, even with the exstensive use they have to handle.
Mostly because inside they look as new, and the notch isn't worn either.

We'll just have to wait and see what L&F has to say about it.

Ronald

[mh]

Another point is, if the kids realise it's possible to lock the door and leave the cilinder in the wrong position, they can lockout the janitor

Are you sure about that? / Which shear line is used for the janitor's key?

[rohi]

The first shearline is used for the student key.
It doesn't matter which shearline is used, since when the lock is not in the beginposition the masterkey will not work because the top pins are not aligned with the bottompins to begin with.
This is why the tubular locks have the notch, to prevent the lock being left in a position where this could happen.
In the case of the locks i have here, the first top pin is on top of the second pair of bottom pins, this leaves the seventh pin above the blind position in the masterkey ring.
This means that the coding of the masterkey will not work.

Ronald

[mh]

The first shearline is used for the student key.
It doesn't matter which shearline is used, since when the lock is not in the beginposition the masterkey will not work because the top pins are not aligned with the bottompins to begin with.

Well, I think that the key that fits the 1st (left) shearline will always work

(it might have to be inserted in another position than the start position - so you would have to remove the key's notch)

because if you insert that key, the plug will disengage from the masterkey-ring (the 1st (left) shearline is intact), and can be turned.
I believe for that key, only the lengths of the top- (key-) pins are important.

If that's the masterkey - it will work.

Cheers,
mh

[rohi]

Only the key that was used when the lock jamms(?) will work to open it again.
You will however have to take the notch off of it to get it in the lock in the offset position.

[mh]

Only the key that was used when the lock jamms(?) will work to open it again.
You will however have to take the notch off of it to get it in the lock in the offset position.

I would bet that
- if the key that jams the lock uses the "2nd" shearline (on the right in your picture) -
the key that uses the "1st" shearline (on the left in your picture) would still work (with removed notch, of course).

If not,
then could you please explain how the 'master ring' interacts with the plug and the housing,
and why the "1st" shear line is not always 'available'?

Thanks,
mh