Opensource maskerkeying project proposal - restarted

[zeke79]

Are we building this as a locksport community? or as an enterprise aimed at locksmiths?

I'm for the former, personally.

By its very nature, the project is aimed towards locksmiths. I don't know of any hobbiest that has designed a large scale master-key system...

*raises hand*

Don't get me wrong, I am a hard-core libertarian capitalist, but I didn't build my own checkpin into a mortise cylinder because I thought I was filling a need or might recoup my costs, but because I wanted to know how it would work and to see if I could do it, then brought it here because I thought others might want to play around with the same concepts. Same reason I did any of my plug modding, or wrote out a moderately complex masterkey system for 75 locks in my free time.

My interest in this project is very much the same. I am specifically not interested in something that will become relied upon as a part of someone's business structure, as that puts the onus on us to keep it going beyond a certain point. My interest is in building a tool to see how well we could build it, what it would take, and to see if other people found the process or results interesting.

So, for me, the two ideas are mutually exclusive. That said? I could certainly understand if this isn't the zeitgeist, and as per the fantastic lecture that whitehat linked to, I will not allow myself to derail or poison what could be an incredible project, so if my thoughts are at odds with the prevailing ideas here, no worries, I'll still happily provide hosting for the project, but I'll likely check out a bit.

Schuyler,

I am not trying to ruin the project by any means here. i am simply stating that giving customers access to their charts is not only a security risk but also hinders return business and causes problems when other come in and create keys, ghost keys, etc and you do not know about it because the charts were not maintained. Best to keep those to yourself unless as I stated it is required in the contract of the job. I am by no means opposed to adding in a key tracking feature that if the locksmith setup a web server could allow the company to track already EXISTING keys that way. Though I feel the main part of the program should be standalone and require no internet access to use.

[DaveAG]

triple-posting here, sorry.

Schulyer, I notice that you don't want the hassle of keeping it maintained for the purposes of businesses that rely on it. I can see your point, but as zeke said, if the code is open and the file formats are open, then anyone can pick the project up and carry it on. With a closed source program, people can't do that and they end up stuck with a buggy or crashed piece of software with all their data in it.

From the sounds of things, you would be happy to help at the start, but not to maintain, bug-fix etc? Thats no problem as I'm sure as the project matures people will be joining in replacing those that either lose interest, or spare-time.

Open is good for things like this. Even if we need to say encrypt the database of bittings, we could ensure that the file format and algorithm is well published, so that if development stops, all you need is the spec (delivered with the project), the file, and the password to decrypt.

[Schuyler]

What I was trying to say is that a well made tool would be both interesting to develop (from a hobbiest point of view) and give a fascinating insight into masterkey systems but would also help locksmiths by its very existance.

As far as I'm concerned, developing the software to the best of our abilities would be the project's aim, but we can't help the fact that this software will be of use to locksmiths.

But we can help marketing it as such, or building a business model around the tool. You know? We're already talking about customer control, but haven't even established the basic idea of how the tool will actually function.

[DaveAG]

But we can help marketing it as such, or building a business model around the tool. You know? We're already talking about customer control, but haven't even established the basic idea of how the tool will actually function.

I think that people are floating ideas up in the air at the moment, and until concrete decisions are made people shouldn't worry too much about directions.

As and when the requirements are debated, there will be an overall direction for the project. If you have strong views one way or another (and this is to Raccoon and Zeke as well), can I suggest that people put their views over in the requirements debate, and once there is an idea of where it is going, people can decide if ethically they are prepared to help or not.

Projects will always mean different things to different people.

[Schuyler]

mmm - ok, not quoting, but:

zeke - yes, I agree that a standalone that requires nothing more than the variables that you put into it to give you useful data back is what I'm after. I also agree about the security risk that is inherent with storing any sort of customer information and associating it with the results of a query to our program. Also, I didn't mean to imply that you were trying to run things, to be perfectly open about it, it was raccoon's suggestions that had me a bit ill at ease, as they sounded closer to a startup business than a fun experimental project, though the two obviously have a lot of similarity.

dave - yes, I'd love to help out at the start, see how fine a tool we can build and not involve myself in any maintainence (spelling? firefox is perplexed) or business structure. Thank you for stating it so concisely

ah, open source

Hopefully I'm replying quickly enough to establish my renewed comfort level before this conversation gets more awkward!

[Schuyler]

and dave, I believe you're making an excellent case for managing this project.

[WhiteHat]

and dave, I believe you're making an excellent case for managing this project.

*seconded*

I'm quite happy to learn to hack in whatever language it's finaly decided to write in.

I was just wondering though - perhaps it would be good to make it platform independant - perhaps it's the anti-microsoft geek in me or something - but can we not use .net?

[Raccoon]

To follow up on what I'm trying to describe as far as a web hosted key management software:

o True, many websites die down the road, but that doesn't mean we can't allow the locksmith to download the bitting charts just as they would with stand-alone software. The difference between stand-alone and web hosted software is one and ONLY one thing: Stand-alone software is accessible from a single computer, and web software is accessible to every computer-- including the locksmith and the client.

o Key control does not end with master keying the doors with physical bitting. It involves managing a list of employees, faculty, staff who hold keys, which keys they hold, and which doors need to be re-keyed when the client "one-click fires" said employee. Locksmith can be notified by email via click of a button when someone is fired and locks need to be re-keyed, listing exactly which locks and how many new keys are needed for other key-holders.

o Security is an issue, but it's a non-issue. What I mean is, if you feel overly-concerned about establishing a secure website, then you probably don't have the confidence to effectively implement that security. There is a way it can be done security, so it's not a matter to worry about at the R&D stage.

o Trying other people's software is not the same as copying from their software verbatim. The features and functions of a program cannot be protected by copyright law. The graphical layout can be. I'm more concerned about people actually using existing software to get a real-feel for what it's like to design a masterkey system, and what features are needed to make it work.

[zeke79]

Raccoon,

Take a look at keymastery by secsoft I think it is. Sometimes when you add too much into a software like that it becomes so cumbersome to use that many do not use it. I think that is the case with keymastery. I have tried it and hated it.

I am not knocking anyones ideas here. I am anxious to try my hand at the software and help out where I can. I just want to be sure that everyone tries something similar to what we are looking at doing before we do it. I know my idea of what I like does not suit everyone and I respect that.

[Shrub]

I want a piece of software that i can.....

Input the name and address of the place being keyed,
Input the number of locks i want to use,
Input the locks that need to be keyed to each other,
Input the levels i need in the system,
Input the number of pins the lock uses,
Input the depths of the cuts,

I then want it to.....

Output a list of bitings each lock has to be keyed to,
Allow me to print out a one page chart of the pinnings,
Let me save the details under a very easy to use database system whereby i put the address in and it brings up the details,

I want this to be free to download and to work on windows xp,

I want the full thing to be all on one screen without having to navigate menus etc,

I want it to be Palm compatable,

I see no need for market intergration etc etc if its good it will be used and word will spread, money isnt being made from it so its neither here nor there if no-one else uses it other than those of us here that want such a piece of software,

[Schuyler]

I want a piece of software that i can.....

Input the name and address of the place being keyed,
Input the number of locks i want to use,
Input the locks that need to be keyed to each other,
Input the levels i need in the system,
Input the number of pins the lock uses,
Input the depths of the cuts,

I then want it to.....

Output a list of bitings each lock has to be keyed to,
Allow me to print out a one page chart of the pinnings,
Let me save the details under a very easy to use database system whereby i put the address in and it brings up the details,

I want this to be free to download and to work on windows xp,

I want the full thing to be all on one screen without having to navigate menus etc,

I want it to be Palm compatable,

I see no need for market intergration etc etc if its good it will be used and word will spread, money isnt being made from it so its neither here nor there if no-one else uses it other than those of us here that want such a piece of software,

I'd say that's directly in line with what I'd been thinking. Save for the Palm compatible part. That's a clever and useful parameter on the project.

[DaveAG]

Shrub, thats a great list. If more people can post up lists like that we'll be able to get formal requirements sorted quicker.

I would also say that except for the palm compatible bit, what you have suggested would be an excellent basis to start the project off with.

Raccoon, I think your ideas are good, but need to be considered as extensions to a basic system. If we set ourselves the task of a massive all-singing all-dancing system, then there is the risk that people get swamped by the amount to do and the project fails, whereas if we build something small now, we can extend it with more features once its complete.

If we document everything well, and design knowing the project will be extended then there should be no reason that it is much harder to add features to a working base system than it is to design them in from the start.

[Shrub]

I have been reminded that i actually own superkey 2000 and that does what i want but its far too complicated,

What im after is somthign thats gogin to make me want to use it instead of a pen and paper,

One screen with all the poarameters on will do this as menu navagating takes time and needs learning, im after somthign i can do in less than a min on a laptop or pda in the middle of nowhere,

I apprechiate the pda thing would be non standard but it was my wish list and thought i would get it on your minds from early on, of course the better thing would be to have it on my mobile phone but then things get messy as menu driven software will have to be used again and printing out a professional page would also become an issue in the middle of nowhere,

[Gordon Airporte]

I just checked and there's a Java Runtime Environment for PalmPilots.

[zeke79]

I just checked and there's a Java Runtime Environment for PalmPilots.

Awesome I LOVE coffee!!