Looking for a particular bump video

[lunchb0x]

what i dont get is why do you need to spend alot of time and money on a computer program to simulate this when you can use a cutaway lock and see it for yourself

[needlockfu]

Actually, they have a computer simulation (not animation) whhich proves the Newton's cradle theory is not the way bumping works. Matter of fact, it proves the pins dont separate as the stack is pushed upward, but rather as the stack is returning down.

HUH? is this "scientifically" proven? sounds like olds wifes tales to me...

[Shrub]

A patent on phisics???? now i have heard it all,
What on earth are they trying to patent? theres nothign there, all they claim is that they think bumping works a differant way that it does, nothign to patent there as far as i can see,

Johhny with respect ive a few concerns,

The pins separate on the way down?
Whats the way down? we have locks 180' to what you have them, gravity has somthign to say on things like that,

I cant understand how gravity pulls the top pins down faster than the springs push them and in a euro lock gravity actually turns to a negative to make the pins move upwards faster than the springs can push them up??? lol yea right,

I have an issue with someone making a computor program to support this,
I could say that jet engines run a slower rpm than a combustion engine and then make up a computor program that shows this, it doesnt mean that either are true,

Theyve done photography etc?
Does that mean time lapse, split frame, slow motion etc? so that the pins can be seen? how have they done that? a cutaway does not lend itself to being bumped and a clear lock isnt a real lock with real lock tolerances,

I am going to give benefit of the doubt that you really believe this and its not somthign youve made up as im sure you know you will be ostricised if that happened,
I assume someone has told you this and theyve done a good job of selling it to you as youve come and posted it on here,
Anyone finding such a thing out would have posted it on all the forums asap adn got discussions gogin, doing it this way has been done before and all it does its breed disresepct from day one, someone doing as you suggest would want to discuss results etc with like minded people not say they are keeping it secret until play time,

Ive checkedc the date of this thread a few times to make sure it wasnt posted on April 1st as that what it is or at least it certainly is without any sort of evidence,

It also puddles me how such a top secret thing has A) got in to your lap, its not as if your the most vocal about bumping maybe barry wels but why you? B) you wanted a bump video so why tell the story of the top secret project? why not just ask for the video and keep the story secret?


What my thoughts of possable scenareo's are right now are,

You wanted the bump video but either couldnt find it or didnt want to look so made a thread asking for it but so you didnt get the usual flame of being lazy you came up with this story that now you cant keep up,

Or

Your being lead a merry dance by a mate,

Or

Youve started a joke that simply didnt take off as funny and now your in deep,

Or

Someone is trying to make a name for himself,

Or and this is the most unlikely i can think of to be honest,
Your tellign the truth,


Now this post isnt meant as having a go or meant to offend or cause offense,
It is merely my thoughts, i personally think this is a total croc but if true would like to see the results and how they were achieved as it could be interesting as to what theyve come up with but from my own knowledge of phisics, science, maths and lockpicking/bumping i deem this to be nothing more than a waste of bandwidth,

It sounds like some bollocks youve read on one of these breakaway forums and told them you will get them a specific video to show them (if it was illusions he meant for his stuff to be on this site and nowhere else by the way), some of the stuff those monkeys write on those places do tend to be a joke or at best misunderstood, ill informed and un-practiced garbage they have either made up or read once somewhere in a hampton book

[LockNewbie21]

Man I'll tell you what I have heard some crap, but this cuts the shite.. pun intended.

First off, why would you spend money on something that already works? Not even to make it better proformance wise, just a diffrent thought about it's physics and movements.


You have claims, no eveidence, you did not even invent this ramble of idiocy. You have no physics principals to back it up.

So I simply got- My buddies invented something, there not saying what, the principals theorectical tie to buimping already exists and works and is proven, not even really liked except for idiots lacking brainmass and self discipline to learn proper skill.


This gave me a great laugh

[Johnny P]

I have been a practicng locksmith for 12 years and have been bumping locks since some of you were in grade school or een nursery school.

This information cae from someone on a locksmith only website. A veery respected locksmith only - secured website.

The two men who have been working on it are also using their findings to to find reliable way to make locks bump-proof with infallibility. I am assuming this will mean either new pins or new springs or some other technique which they will patent.

They have contacted ALOA to offer to show them how the theory presently used to explain how bumping works is incorrect so ALOA can show it to their members.

I frankly don't give a healthy d--n if you believe me or not. I just thought a bunch of you "puzzle solvers" might be interested in what might be the true reason the puzzle of bumping works.

When they do make their findings known, perhaps I will post them here, though with some of the latest attitudes, I almost have to assume you aren't really interested in this particular puzzle.

[LockNewbie21]

1.

I have been a practicng locksmith for 12 years and have been bumping locks since some of you were in grade school or een nursery school.

2.

The two men who have been working on it are also using their findings to to find reliable way to make locks bump-proof with infallibility

1. If your a 12 year vet. then you clearly understand the mechanics of a pin tumbler design and the inherant flaw in every single one based upon not only machined tollerences but also that even lock with secondary mech's like that of Assa, medeco, primus are all suceptable to bumping given circumstances with which proper knowldge a bumpkey can be made by proper reading methods.. of which are not for open discussion.

2. If these two guys are indeed who they say they are with credentials to match there bullsh*t. They would realise the following.

2.a- Any pintumbler lock is bumpable, some have passive pin's bearing and the like to jam a lock. Thus can be bumped but jam. None the less can be bumped.

2.B- Bumpproof locks exist. Those who's mechanical operating principals rely outside of that of a pin tumber. Abloys rotating disc Principal, lever locking prinicipal. All these are 100% bump proof due to there OPERATION.


So inconclusion my 12 year vet. pal. The problem has been solved since for thousands of years.. or since the lever locks inception into personal security.

All it simple takes is a knowledgable individual to relay this to a customer, not ask for bumping video's in a medicore attempt at... well what ever it is that you were trying.

Does that answere you question?

MODS Please Lock this

[blake1803]

I know that bumping is a touchy subject for a variety of reasons, but I don't see why there's a need for arguing or hostility on either side. Johnny P seems entirely settled in his opinion and will either eventually post the findings, or he wont. Anything discussion until that point doesn't seem particularly productive. We've been over the rest of this before...

[LockNewbie21]

MODS Please Lock this

I settled the agurment based on Technical facts and known knowldge.

No arguing.. it's called finishing

[Johnny P]

OK, Shrub and the other naysayers.

The National Locksmith magazine has published an article on the new Master Lock bump proof lock and the process taken to perfect a bumpproof lock using standard keys in a standard lock.

Not high security, key restricted, sidebar cylinder. Plain old Master lock.

Every thing they tried going on the age-old presumption of the newton's cradle theory that all of you swear by and laughed at me saying that theory was incorrect would not work.

They finally used a high speed camera and saw the separation between pins did not occur until the bottom pins fell.

It was after noticing this that they were able to produce a truly bump-proof lock with the change of 1 top pin in one chamber with a 1 or 2 depth bottom pin in the corresponding chamber. The bottom pin in that chamber never meets the new top pin so there is no "bouncing" of that top pin.

Any locksmith on this site who gets the TNL magazine can read the article and vouch for what I am saying.

So much for you all that say you like solving puzzles. You wouldn't even give this theory a chance you were trapped in your little newton's cradle rut.

[Shrub]

Johhny p i think you need to study that article a bit closer and then re-read your first poist then all the replies,

The fact still remains that newtons law gets the pins up there in the first place and thats the point we were trying to get through to you,

I am not reading the whole thread again as bumping is sooo yesterday and i never liked it in the first place but im sure from memory what you actually did was come here and say you had this incredable new information then never posted it up so we all called you a liar,

You still havent told us what you were on about from memory so again your aguments are invalid,

If you did infact then come to tell us what was what then i appolagise but as i say its through lack of re-reading the thread,

Im sure we will agree tht the key being hit in the lock on the pins causes the pins to move upwards and that is because of newtons law which states every action has an opposite reaction,

If bumping worked by any other way then it would be the answer to levitation,

[Jaakko]

They finally used a high speed camera and saw the separation between pins did not occur until the bottom pins fell.

Ah-ha, well, where is the video material available?

You wouldn't even give this theory a chance you were trapped in your little newton's cradle rut.

If there is no proofs presented along with the theory, then there is no theory. So where is the video so much hyped?

[mark!]

I think you will find that HAN FEY explains the method of stopping bumping by the use of different sized holes in the same pin stack therefore stopping the two pins crashing into each other.This was explained more than a year ago and published in the video workshop on the toool website.No secret pattents there just facts,go look for yourself.So I'm sorry to tell you your friends haven't invented anything new they have just tried to hyjack other peoples work.Han Fey goes on to list several lock manufacturers who investigated and invented variations of this idea and produce these type of pinstack in thier locks.Sorry to disappoint your friend.

[Johnny P]

Quoting from the article, wrtten by the guys at Master Lock,

The action of the bump key has typically been thought to repliccate the effect of a pick gun, or be similar to the eexecutive desk perpetual ball bearing toy. However, we thought we needed to know for sure so we arranged a high speed photography which shows that there is a different effect. When used as designed, a pick gun applies force to the bottom pin and that force is transferred to the top pin which then travels above the shearline." (But you all knew that already.)

Continuuing from the article: "The bump key impacts thebottom pin and then, via the ramp formed by the steeple between cuts, pushes the entire pin stack violently upward. When the pin stack reaches the zenith of it rise, in the chamber the bottom pin descends and separates before the top pin starts to descend. The gap between the two pins crosses the shear line and the slight torque being applied to the key causes the plug to rotate."

In trying to come to a solution all their first attempts were geared toward the inertia cradle model. Due to their lack of success, they commissioned high speed video (2162 frames per second) to better understand the dynamics of bumping. The first idea gav them a cylinder that was roughly 90% bump resistent.

Then they changed the design a little bit more and they now have a cylider that is bump resistent to 99.99% and makes bump attempts fully detectable.

They have applied for a patent on this new technology and it will avilable in all the product line - padlocks, door locks, etc. by October, 2007.

If you don't believe me, call the Master Lock company at 1-800-308-9244

[UWSDWF]

this was turoughly discussed in another thread and I believe n2oah explained it best behind this dilusional patent

Here's my explanation of Master's "pins seperate on the way down" theory:

Crackpipe
+

Science
+

+
Phencyclidine
= bump proof master lock

[globallockytoo]

Johnny P,

Whilst we in the industry understand that this technique that Master have decided their product beats.... might go some ways to discounting bumping for master products...substantially, there is no reason that a seasoned lockpicker should realistically have any trouble in picking this lock as the same principle of picking will still apply.

That is....with sufficient turning pressure on the plug...the top pin(s) will still bind (above the shearline) allowing the barrel to turn.

Aside from this point....Master cannot say...outright...that the implementation of this new technology will improve the masterkeying quotient in any of their products. So whilst it might prove to be effective in the one off situation...a percentage of their sales depend on products that use other manufacturers cylinders....for example....the master Pro Series padlock 6621 is available as a WO product (WO being without cylinder) making the product able to be keyed in with existing schlage or other types of cylinders...thereby still making them bumpable.

Aside from the fact that reducing an already 5 pin system from 5 master keyable chambers to only 4 subsatantially reduces the amount of masterkeyable codes in any system.

For the one off padlock sale...it might prove worthy...but any pin tumbler system (except Bilock) uses multiple stacks of tumblers in each chamber to enable different levels of keys to work in a master keyed system.

On the other hand, In Australia, the Binary Plus system designed by Australian Lock Company (co-incedentally the original manufacturer of Bilock) is a common pin tumbler system that is unable to be bumped, without the use of sidebar technology. But they too...reduce the number of pin changes in the 3rd pin location. With a 6 pin system this only reduces the changes to 5 to the power of 9 instead of 6 to the power of 9.

Unfortunately Binary Plus is not available in the USA currently...although negotiations with the manufacturer continue.