Bi-Axial Locks

[paulvalente]

Morning Guys,

So I was in my local lock shop buying some more crappy nightlatch cylinders to practice on, when the owner who's a really nice guy by the way. (If anyone needs a locksmith in Watford he's your guy). Asked me if I wanted a real challenge. I laughed and said no thanks I was just starting out but asked for more info.

He showed me something he called a Chubb Bi-Axial. Apparently the pins not only have to be set to the right height but to the right angle too (Have I got that right?).

Now the cylinder (Euro cylinder actually) had Medeco writen on the front. This is the first I've seen of these locks that are mentioned so much on this forum. Is it their picking difficulty that seems to make you guys covet them so much?

The Locksmith claimed that he'd never seen anyone pick one of these! Is this an outrageous claim or is it possible?

Cheers

Paul

[MBI]

The locks you're talking about are made by Medeco but they have some sort of licensing agreement with Chubb.

They are a challenge to pick but not impossible. I've picked them with five pins, one of these days I'll get around to trying one with six pins. The newer style of these locks is the M3 which adds a slider to the sidebar. I can't really say the slider much security to the lock, but it does add another layer of key control which is nice if you are using them for a masterkeyed system.

I think they're fun to work on. I attended a Medeco class to get certified to service them. It was interesting. Plus, we had free breakfast, lunch and beverages, courtesy of Medeco!

JKtheCJer is a member here who is becoming quite the expert on picking these. His picking skills leave me in the dust so hopefully he'll chime in too, although since they are high security sidebar locks I think detailed information on defeating them can only be posted in the advanced forums.

[JK_the_CJer]

Thanks MBI

I was given my first Medeco (it was also a Biaxial) by a local locksmith that I'm now friendly with. I was in his shop buying a Mul-T-Lock Interactive and started talking picking. After I had paid full price (yuck), I figured I'd ask (different lockie in the shop) if he sold Medeco and had a cheap cylinder around. He asked what I wanted it for (kik, mortise, sfic, etc..) and of course I told "picking". He handed me this lock: http://www.theamazingking.com/biaxial.html, gave a little scoff, and uttered something like "but I don't think you'll pick it". Well two weeks of I'll-show-you later, I opened it. Now I'm an addict

[caffn8me]

It sounds like the M3 - details (in PDF) here

I tried to get one but none of the Chubb Super Centres I went to stocked them. In the end, having read this which describes a vulnerability in the M3 design I opted for an EVVA 3KS instead.

[paulvalente]

Thanks Guys very informative.

From what I understand this is about the best you can buy at the moment. Is that a fair statement? I reckon I might buy one for my front door unless someones got a better idea?

Ta

[MBI]

The M3 would be my first choice because I'm certified to service them, have the parts to work on them, and can buy them at wholesale. Aside from those factors, the Medeco is just one out of several high security locks that I'd trust for security. Some others I'd trust would be the ASSA Twin, Bilock, Evva 3KS, Schlage Primus Everest, Abloy, just to name a few.

From a security standpoint, the M3 vulnerability that caffn8me mentions above doesn't deter me from using this lock. All that does is make the lock behave more like a regular biaxial, which is still hard to pick. While the slider does add another layer of security, it's mainly there for key control.

[greyman]

[...]
He showed me something he called a Chubb Bi-Axial. Apparently the pins not only have to be set to the right height but to the right angle too (Have I got that right?).
[...]

Chubb is rebadging Medeco's Biaxial. In typical Chubb style, they couldn't be bothered producing a decent pin tumbler lock themselves.

[deciBell]

I just wonder if they will continue using the hex (allen?) screws to close the pinstack.
(nice for lockpickers, start training with 3 pins fi.)

[globallockytoo]

All this talk about the impressive M3 when it is overpriced garbage.

There are multiple examples in the is forum of the M3 picked and bumped and bypassed.

There are videos and threads discussing picks for these.

In Utah you might be able to hoodwink your clients but an ethical locksmith would do otherwise...and sell a real value for money product.

Also M3 blanks will become available before too long to any key cutter....so your duplication protection will go right out the window.

[caffn8me]

Why do you think I went for the Evva 3KS?

There are quite a few members on this forum who have picked M3s - there won't be one who has picked or bumped a 3KS. The 3KS can be decoded but the decoder tool is only available to government agencies.

[MBI]

All this talk about the impressive M3 when it is overpriced garbage.

There are multiple examples in the is forum of the M3 picked and bumped and bypassed.

There are videos and threads discussing picks for these.

In Utah you might be able to hoodwink your clients but an ethical locksmith would do otherwise...and sell a real value for money product.

Also M3 blanks will become available before too long to any key cutter....so your duplication protection will go right out the window.

Since you mentioned Utah and I don’t see any other people that have posted in this thread who listed Utah as their location, I must assume you are talking about me. As far as I can recall I have never attacked your character, yet here you are, calling me unethical and saying that I’m hoodwinking my customers. That is uncalled for. Never mind that flaming of this type is a violation of board rules, but what you’re doing is simply an impolite breach of human decency. It is also blatantly incorrect. I bend over backwards to help customers make informed decisions and I never push a product onto anyone. On occasion I’ve lost sales from the fact that I’m very open with customers about their options, whether or not I can provide all of those options. I do locksmithing on a part time basis because I enjoy it. The day I stop enjoying it, or catch myself trying to "hoodwink" a customer just so I can sell an extra lock or two, is the day I abandon being a locksmith.

Many of us on this forum are aware of your fondness for Bilocks. The original post in this thread was regarding Biaxial locks (a Medeco product), so I posted a response to that question. While I did say that Medeco was my first choice for a high security lock, I was also upfront about why I recommended it. I also listed six other good options by name, Bilock included, although for the sake of brevity I didn’t discuss those options beyond naming them.

Besides attacking my character, I believe you also made some factual errors in your post. I’ve noticed that some people here get tired of it when posts get picked apart by others, line by line, so I’ll avoid doing that unless you or anyone else is particularly curious to hear it.

Although I saw nothing to indicate it, perhaps you meant your post to be tongue-in-cheek. If I have overreacted here then I apologize, but attacks on my character tend to annoy me, and that’s all this looks like to me.

[globallockytoo]

Unlike yourself, Locksmithing is not a part-time job or profession. It requires constant learning and practise.

You either are or are not a locksmith. Perhaps your other vocations are part time.

I'm a full time locksmith. But I also work part time in Personal Security a.k.a VIP security. (Static guarding, mobile patrols, executive protection etc)

I also dabble in the stock market - part time, but locksmithing is my profession and full time occupation.

By all means, be a hobbyist, but try to leave locksmithing to full time professionals.

I was not attacking your character, if you choose to see yourself in that light, it is your problem, perhaps you should be doing something else?

[bumber]

Unlike yourself, BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? Im not gonna speak my mind because it would probly get me deleted, but if you were talking about me you would be lucky your in another state!!!

First you say locksmithing isn't part time OR a profession then you say your a full time locksmith, then you rabble about your hobbies. THEN after all that you say you ARE A PROFESSIONAL locksmith.....and whoever the****wants to be a locksmith can be no matter what anyone else says hell they don't even have to be good at it to be a professional.

[digital_blue]

Ok, enough.

global, your first post in the thread is halfway between trolling and personal attack.

Let's keep it clean guys. Show some respect for your fellow members.

db