Non IC chamber effecting the control key?

[Shangri-laschild]

I use a Corbin IC core where I work. It's 6 pins with the middle 4 being the control chambers. The other day, I tried to pin an SKD lock and met with some weird trouble. The door key would work, but the control key wouldn't. I couldn't figure out what was wrong so I tried process of elimination. I took out the back 3 and both keys worked. Starting from the middle, I tried adding a new chamber one at a time till I only had the last chamber empty. Again, the first and last chambers aren't the control key chambers. Both the door key and the control key worked when I did that but when I filled the last chamber, only the door key worked. I keyed two locks and had to pin both of them like that (with the last chamber empty in order to get them to work properly. Anyone have any clue why that is? I thought that the last chamber shouldn't have any effect on the control key. Or at least, that if there was an issue with that chamber, it would only effect the door key, not the control key. Am I wrong about that?

[FarmerFreak]

It sounds like the change key and the control key use different depths in the sixth space. And you are only keying the last chamber to the change key. Most likely adding the correct master pin to the last chamber will fix your problem.

[Shangri-laschild]

I've never pinned the first or last to the control key. When I learned how to pin these keys was to set it up like this:
Control 2 4 3 5
GGM 1 2 3 4 5 6
Change 6 5 4 3 2 1
------------------
Top Pin T 2 4 3 5 T
Build Up - -3 0 -1 0 -
Master 5 3 1 1 3 5
Bottom 1 2 3 3 2 1

The T is always the same and it's a +3 pin and it always showed me to leave the not use build up pins on the 1st and 6th. That's when I do keys that are under our GGM though and thinking about it, the GGMs 1st and 6th depth are the same as the control keys 1st and 6th. With the SKD lock, I'm only pinning it to the one change key and the control key. In this case, it looked more like this:

Control: 2 4 1 3 2 1
SKD: 2 2 1 2 6 2

Control 4 1 3 2
SKD Key 2 2 1 2 6 2
------------------
Top Pin T 4 1 3 2 T
Build Up - +2 0 +1 -4 -
Bottom 2 2 1 2 6 2

So instead, that last chamber should have a 1 bottom pin and a 1 master chip on top of it? I think I understand, if that's what I'm supposed to do. I learned pinning ICs on Best locks when I went to locksmith school, but Corbins are different and so I learned pinning them out of the Corbin Cylinder Manual. That's worked out fairly good until I tried this one (and when I ran into the Corbin Master Ring locks which I really didn't like). Any tips on best way to get the spring cover on? Only way I've found so far is to put it in a vice and hammer it on but I'm nervous about bending the locks out of shape so I try to avoid that when I can.

[FarmerFreak]

I certainly hope you didn't list the real cuts there...

I suppose if you are really trying to get a SKD cylinder the info I gave you earlier is a little bit wrong. Technically it will work fine, but you're probably suppose to cut a new core key that uses the change key cuts in the first and last spaces. But if that isn't an option, your hands would be tied and you could only do it the first way I mentioned.

As far as staking the cap down a vice should do just fine. However I would try to find a leather piece or something to wrap around the sides of the cylinder to prevent scratches from the vice. Another option would be to find/make a wood block with a cutout to hold the cylinder in. Then I would use a punch and a small hammer (I have a 2 ounce hammer, most the guys I work with use 4-6 ounce hammers).

If you do enough of them I recommend trying to find a rectangular shaped punch that can cover the entire length of the cap. That's something you may have to make out of a flat piece of steel. The one we use was made out of an old worn out "do not duplicate" stamp that had the words all on one line.

[Shangri-laschild]

No, they are not the actual cuts.

Thanks. In time I may be able to fix the SKD keys so that I don't have this problem. I'm not sure exactly who created them. When I tried asking Corbin and the locksmith that we used at the time, neither of them knew about some of them. Because of that, I'm not sure exactly who created them or how good of a job they did.

Thanks for the tips on the cap. That should help.

[Evan]

Shangri-laschild:

Your problem sounds simple... You are trying to use your system-wide control key on a core which is NOT keyed to allow the GGM to operate... Since the system-wide control key and the GGM in Corbin-Russwin LFIC systems usually share the same cuts in all positions except two positions within the control sleeve creating an SKD set becomes an issue... The other two (in a 6-pin system) or three (in a 7-pin system) non-control sleeve positions are cut match to the GGM on the control keys...

SKD sets should have their own control key for each unique SKD combination... This would solve your problem as then the control would be cut to the SKD combination in all positions except the two that would normally differ from the GGM in a master keyed core... You would only have to reserve the two cuts you use for the SKD control bittings from being used in those same positions on any of the SKD keyset bittings…

You said that you only had this problem with the last chamber of the core, you should have also had it in the first one as well, as you want your SKD keysets to not share any cuts in common with the GGM if at all possible, which would have created this problem if the first chamber of the core was pinned to a non control/GGM shared bitting depth...

So your SKD key has the same cut in its first position as the GGM and the control key, yes ? That is not a desirable condition… It is for those reasons why SKD sets are usually something which you would want to implement on a different keyway from the other locks in the system…

If you want an SKD core to work with your existing system control key you will need to make sure that it is keyed into the lock in all positions... This might mean that more keys will operate the lock and that selecting a bitting which will NOT allow the GGM to also operate as well becomes an issue... Having any additional master pins in an SKD lock makes it less secure... This is why realistically SKD cores should not be keyed to use the system-wide control key…

It is similar to the problem of wanting a core which the GGM SHOULD NOT operate, you would need to create an alternative control key which doesn't match the GGM in one of the non-control sleeve positions which would impact the overall expansion/design of the master keying system to allow additional difference between the control key and the system GGM which is for whatever reason excluded from operating that lock...

I hope that helps you figure out your problem…

~~ Evan

[Shangri-laschild]

I've been using the SKD control key for this. We have a bunch of SKD keys and looking over the list, while they all start with the same number as the SKD control key, they end in different numbers. Actually, all of them except for 2 have the same first 3 numbers like the door keys under the same submaster in the main system. I'm not sure why that is. The two that aren't like that are the two newest and they match each other. Like I said, I'm not quite sure who set up this system so it's set up a bit odd in some spots...

[Evan]

I've been using the SKD control key for this. We have a bunch of SKD keys and looking over the list, while they all start with the same number as the SKD control key, they end in different numbers. Actually, all of them except for 2 have the same first 3 numbers like the door keys under the same submaster in the main system. I'm not sure why that is. The two that aren't like that are the two newest and they match each other. Like I said, I'm not quite sure who set up this system so it's set up a bit odd in some spots...

Are they really SKD sets ? Or are they locks that are an extreme version of change key only (NMK) ? Especially if some of the SKD bittings contain cuts which are identical to bittings within a master key group in your system... It does sound like you have some odd aspects to your system...

It is better for SKD locks to have a unique control key for each different SKD bitting, rather than sharing a common control key amongst several different SKD keysets for security... Not saying it is a requirement or anything, just that if each SKD keyset has its own control key then you are not adding in any extra master pins beyond what is needed to operate the control sleeve...

~~ Evan

[Shangri-laschild]

Yeah, they're SKD sets. I'm not sure why they were set up like they were.

[opr admin]

I need some help. I have been working with locksmiths for the past 20 years. When I have requested a SKD lock, the locksmiths have just gone ahead and done that. I am now in a new position in a new organization and dealing with a different set of locksmiths. I asked them, in advance of a request, whether they were able to do SKD. They replied in the afirmative, so I ordered a lock change to a SKD lock. When I checked the lock, it was changed to a different change key, operated by the master that I did not want to work on the lock.

When I questioned the locksmith about it, he advised that this is a single keyed lock that is different than any other locks in the building. Since I am not a locksmith, I could not explain the technical aspects of SKD. Is someone able to give me enough information to pass to this locksmith so that I can get the lock keyed SKD? Thanks.

[FarmerFreak]

opr admin, If the locksmith is really that dumb, or inexperienced. You should look for another locksmith. If they don't know what or how to Key a lock SKD (single keyed differently), basically meaning they can't key a lock to one individual key, and they have to masterkey it because they are idiots. ...Experience tells me that there is a very good chance the rest of the system is completely fubard and is due for an overhaul.

[opr admin]

FarmerFreak - I agree with your comments, however, this is a unionized environment and the locksmiths are employees of the org, not out sourced. Consequently, I have to work within the confines of the employees presently employed...and I need to be able to give them enough information to change this to a SKD lock.

[femurat]

You can tell them to disassemble the lock and superglue the master wafers to the driver pin or the top pin of each mastered chamber, preventing the other keys to work

Cheers

[Evan]

FarmerFreak - I agree with your comments, however, this is a unionized environment and the locksmiths are employees of the org, not out sourced. Consequently, I have to work within the confines of the employees presently employed...and I need to be able to give them enough information to change this to a SKD lock.

How about asking them for a lock cylinder that is on the same keyway as the rest of the locks in the facility that has a unique bitting all its own and is NOT OPERATED BY any currently existing key in the system...

It sounds more to me like you do not possess the correct level of authority in the organization to request a lock keyed the way you want it for the door which you can ask to have rekeyed... Union in-house tradesmen imply a very large facility with many rules about behind-the-scenes things which are not known to everyone who works there... Those locksmiths may be required to provide locks which are part of a master key system unless a special exception is approved by someone in facilities management... You are clearly not currently in such a position or you would have received what you asked for, find out who is in such a position and find out if what you are asking for is possible under the security and safety policies in place at your facility...

~~ Evan

[opr admin]

Thanks for the information. I agree with you...there may be some rules around what the locksmiths are able to do so I did inquire before I ordered the change. The locksmith assured me that this would be no problem and that they do it all the time. I have no reason to not believe him.

When I challenged him after the work was done, he did not seem to even know what I was talking about. I would presume that a locksmith would be familiar with SKD and be able to advise that the org does not authorize this type of lock. He didn't seem to know what SKD even means.

I will push this a bit further and see what falls out at the top. Thanks for all the advice.