Detecting picking

[vov35]

I was thinking about ways to detect picking and sound an area alarm and/or trigger an electronic lockout.

I was thinking of modifying the concept of construction keying (picking will take you to the highest shear line...) to trigger this, but I haven't gotten very far with it.

[Evan]

The technology to monitor this phenomenon already exists...

In a hardwired access control system, doors with hard-keyed mechanical override cylinders are often equipped with a switch inside the lock case that detects when the key override cylinder is used... Whether that be by means of the intended key or by picking it...

It will, depending on the design and programming of the access control system in question, either sound an alarm at a manned operator console for immediate investigation of the event or merely flag a log entry of event depending on the security level of the location in question...

~~ Evan

[FarmerFreak]

I imagine this could be pulled off with a couple of sensors and a lock keyed up with spooled pins. I'm thinking you could have the first sensor trigger when the lock is turned a little bit (the same distance it could be turned on the spooled pins). Then it could start a timer, maybe 5 seconds. And the second sensor would be tripped when the cylinder turns about 30 degrees, and that would cancel the countdown and reset the system.

I'm sure something like that could be set up.

[sfodd]

A lock that detects picking was invented almost 200 years ago. A Chubb detector lock has a mechanism that when tripped by picking mechanically locks out until reset by either the correct key or a special control key. This design could easily be modified to trip some sort of alarm.

A quick google search doesn't seem to have much info about them so if you have trouble seeing how the mechanism works I'll get some pictures of mine.

[Evan]

I imagine this could be pulled off with a couple of sensors and a lock keyed up with spooled pins. I'm thinking you could have the first sensor trigger when the lock is turned a little bit (the same distance it could be turned on the spooled pins). Then it could start a timer, maybe 5 seconds. And the second sensor would be tripped when the cylinder turns about 30 degrees, and that would cancel the countdown and reset the system.

I'm sure something like that could be set up.

So why would you need an overly complicated set of sensors and timers to monitor a simple accessory switch which is triggered prior to the cylinder cam reaching the lock works inside the lock case to log a key override entry event... It is all what the system is programmed to do with that information once that switch closes its circuit that seems to be of issue here...

If the cylinder activates the monitoring switch first before it can operate the lock works, then who cares how much rotation or time is allowed before it activates, it will register the event before the key or picked cylinder can be turned to open the lock...

If you have a higher security system, it will also have a door prop alarm sensor which monitors where the door is, if that circuit is not closed within the allotted time an alarm sounds... That alarm is also activated when the system detects the door being opened without triggering an input from an authorized access card, using the request-to-exit circuit or the key override switch to alert the central monitor of a possible tampering attempt...

~~ Evan

[FarmerFreak]

So why would you need an overly complicated set of sensors and timers to monitor a simple accessory switch which is triggered prior to the cylinder cam reaching the lock works inside the lock case to log a key override entry event...

...Read the original post. The original poster never asked for an audit trail when the correct key was used.

I was thinking about ways to detect picking and sound an area alarm and/or trigger an electronic lockout.

With the sensors I was suggesting the highlighted parts could be accomplished.

The first sensor would be triggered during a picking attempt. Unless the picker was skilled enough to not turn the lock until it was picked past the spools (which by the way isn't how any picker I know picks spooled pins without knowledge of the bitting).

I figure 5 seconds is a reasonable time to allow the cylinder to be turned for the second sensor. As it takes way less than 5 seconds to turn a key from the first sensor to the second one. And from a picking standpoint, picking the lock to the second sensor in less than 5 seconds would be really difficult on a first try.

Then all we need is a way to lock the cylinder up during picking attempts. Maybe a solenoid or something similar to lock the plug in place and preventing it from turning past 10 to 15 degrees.


I like the lock that sfodd pointed to. The Chubb lock was designed specifically for this purpose. However because it uses a key to reset it, it leaves the possibility that it could be picked back giving the picker a chance to try it again.

[mcm757207]

I made a thread about this a while ago, but I had though of installing very small pressure sensors in between the spring and the spring cap of each pin stack. These sensors could detect when the spring was compressed. If the order of spring compression doesn't go pin 1, pin 2, pin 3, pin 4, pin 5, then it can be assumed that someone is trying to pick the lock. This could detect haphazard raking, single pin picking, or really just about any kind of attempted manipulation (it could even detect bumping or impressioning). It could also be something potentially installed in a variety of different locks, making it difficult for an attacker to guess if it was present or not.

[Evan]

...Read the original post. The original poster never asked for an audit trail when the correct key was used.

That is the intended purpose of the accessory switch, however it can also be used to activate instant alarms locally at the door and centrally at a monitoring station depending on how the system is designed and set up with local accessory sounders at the door... Which would accomplish activating an alarm no matter WHAT turns the cylinder, picks or keys... How is that _not_ what the OP asked for ?

I was thinking about ways to detect picking and sound an area alarm and/or trigger an electronic lockout.

Triggering an electronic lock-out defeats the purpose of having a mechanical override capability and the AHJ would definitely not approve of such a device which could lock out everyone from being able to access the door even during an emergency and require destructive entry techniques be used causing delays to progress on ingress or egress during an emergency...

With the sensors I was suggesting the highlighted parts could be accomplished.

The first sensor would be triggered during a picking attempt. Unless the picker was skilled enough to not turn the lock until it was picked past the spools (which by the way isn't how any picker I know picks spooled pins without knowledge of the bitting).

I figure 5 seconds is a reasonable time to allow the cylinder to be turned for the second sensor. As it takes way less than 5 seconds to turn a key from the first sensor to the second one. And from a picking standpoint, picking the lock to the second sensor in less than 5 seconds would be really difficult on a first try.

Yeah for thousands of dollars at each opening requiring a micro-controller be installed at each door to manage all the additional sensors just in the cylinder and the timer functions connected to them which wouldn't be able to be handled over the standard wired connections provided for an access control point: the credential reader comm link, the lock actuator/release output, the door prop magnetic sensor switch, the key override sensor lever switch, deadbolt position sensor lever switch, the request-to-exit switch (which can either be located inside the lock case OR as an external motion sensor device OR wall mounted button station) and the alarm output contacts for the local alarm sounder... Not to mention the complexity required of having your sensors being located in or on the cylinder itself in order to have the sensitivity required to detect what you are wanting to detect with them...

Then all we need is a way to lock the cylinder up during picking attempts. Maybe a solenoid or something similar to lock the plug in place and preventing it from turning past 10 to 15 degrees.

I like the lock that sfodd pointed to. The Chubb lock was designed specifically for this purpose. However because it uses a key to reset it, it leaves the possibility that it could be picked back giving the picker a chance to try it again.

Sounds unlikely that the AHJ would allow the mechanical override cylinder to be able to be locked out as it saw fit to require it to be available to bypass the electronically controlled locks in the event of failure or some kind of access control system lockout so that the door could still be accessible for emergency access...

The point of picking the lock is to open the door, no ?

That being the case, a standard key override sensor switch inside the lock case that is programmed to activate both an instant local alarm as well as signal the system monitoring console (wherever that may be located) would indeed provide the functionality that the OP was looking for... It would only be a matter of programming the controllers to activate the desired outputs when that key override sensor is activated... Any sort of special sensors or lock out devices for the cylinder itself would require spending money which is not required given an understanding of how the access control system can be set up to function with a little bit of thought put into it...

~~ Evan

[FarmerFreak]

Evan, it was never specified what this lock design would be used on. What if it were to be installed on a safe or vault? As any good safe or vault will have re-lockers that permanently lock the door standard.

[Evan]

Evan, it was never specified what this lock design would be used on. What if it were to be installed on a safe or vault? As any good safe or vault will have re-lockers that permanently lock the door standard.

How many safes or vaults have you seen with a key operated lock used for its primary security... Lower grade containers use such devices and are not really considered safes or vaults, however in general higher security containers which include a re-locker mechanism to protect the contents when under attack do not use keyed locks on the main security door... A real vault or safe has a combination lock requiring some PIN code or combination be provided and are require special tools and skills to manipulate or bypass... The day gate may very well have a keyed lock on it but someone who was able to crack open the main security door wouldn't be stopped by it or worried that it is equipped with a picking alarm, would they? A safe or a vault would only need to be able to be released from the inside in the event someone got was locked in and was trapped and such mechanisms would be available for the trapped person inside the protection of container to use in order to gain egress... The contents of the OP's post make your suggestion of the intended application being on a safe or vault door ridiculous as a vault door is not equipped with a keyed cylinder and therefore construction keying would not apply to such a lock... Therefore your analogy of allowing for a re-locker device on a standard door is a faulty comparison and I am going to consider your concerns on that specific aspect of the issue moot and not applicable to what the OP was pondering...

The impression that the OP made was that he wanted to be able to somehow upgrade a standard door lock with a way to detect picking -- clearly this is not possible with a standard non-electronic lock set as it requires electrical sensors and devices located inside the lock itself as well as some kind of controller to manage monitoring those switches and the I/O communications... What the OP asked for is within the design capability of a hard-wired access control system access point -- in a typical access control system, 99.99% of the users accessing the lock will be using system credentials, not the hard-key override which is frequently only available to security and facilities personnel for emergency access, so the key override sensor switch (which would otherwise only be silently logging a non-standard access event) could be used for the purposes of creating an alarm which would activate whenever the door was opened by using the key override cylinder, whether it was picked or operated by its intended key... This could be accomplished by using a local sounder at the door using an accessory relay output in the local controller cabinet near the door and a little bit of programming when commissioning the system...

~~ Evan

[globallockytoo]

Evan,
In the USA, primarily key locks are not used in safes that often. But in other countries they are used significantly more often. There are many excellent quality key locked safes.

There are a number of dual key operated safe locks too. This low tech technology has bee around many hundreds of years and is still today considered high security. Difficult to pick or duplicate a key (time consuming), difficult to detect picking. Not difficult to drill, but knowledge of the lock type is a prerequisite.

[vov35]

Well, the intention was that this is a concept applicable to locks regardless of the application...

The idea is to figure out how to effectively detect picking so as to in lower security applications sound an alarm, and in higher security notify security personnel or emergency services as well as triggering a lockout state of whatever is being operated. These are not necessarily the applications though, the concept here is to turn the lock into an alarm sensor, ideally one which does not consume power until triggered.


I was just thinking that a key fills up the keyway completely whereas picks do not, and while this could make some detection possible, I guess that wouldn't pick up on bump keys.

I like the concept of making sure all pin stacks are manipulated in series, however, how could one do this without consuming power until manipulation begins? Also this is something that could be done with about a dozen discreet components, so I really doubt such a mechanism would be as expensive as Evan predicts.

[vov35]

Also, Evan, if you're going to be all concerned about about emergency ingress/egress, you should go talk on the thread about "semi-pick-proof lock" as it faces the same issues of entering a lockout state.

On that note, something like this could be combined with that lock, making picking it not worth the risk...

[Evan]

Also, Evan, if you're going to be all concerned about about emergency ingress/egress, you should go talk on the thread about "semi-pick-proof lock" as it faces the same issues of entering a lockout state.

On that note, something like this could be combined with that lock, making picking it not worth the risk...

Yes, any lock that will "lock out" authorized keys will not ever be allowed to be used in most permitted occupancy types by the AHJ...

Fire inspectors require access to every locked door in commercial and high density residential structures and will not hesitate to destroy your door and the opening to enter it even to check the room for heat/smoke to properly clear a building after an emergency...

If your "cute" anti-pick/trap type locks malfunction, and locks out the appropriate keys which the fire department is required to have you will be re-framing the door opening and replacing it with a brand new door, frame and lock which operates with the fire department keys and will need to demonstrate that to the inspector's satisfaction before the spaces effected can be occupied again... This would be required because the entry techniques and tools used by the fire department destroy the doors and frames in the process...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Well, the intention was that this is a concept applicable to locks regardless of the application...

The idea is to figure out how to effectively detect picking so as to in lower security applications sound an alarm, and in higher security notify security personnel or emergency services as well as triggering a lockout state of whatever is being operated. These are not necessarily the applications though, the concept here is to turn the lock into an alarm sensor, ideally one which does not consume power until triggered.


I was just thinking that a key fills up the keyway completely whereas picks do not, and while this could make some detection possible, I guess that wouldn't pick up on bump keys.

I like the concept of making sure all pin stacks are manipulated in series, however, how could one do this without consuming power until manipulation begins? Also this is something that could be done with about a dozen discreet components, so I really doubt such a mechanism would be as expensive as Evan predicts.

Ok... So unless you can make a self-contained system which is able to fit in it's entirety within the cylinder component of a "lower security lock" what you are trying to achieve will not be possible...

The electrified lock cases that I described as being part of a centrally controlled access control system require specially outfitted doors with concealed wiring chases, some type of connection from the door to the frame for the wiring and wiring installed from the opening to the field control cabinet where the relays are and the door circuits terminate and the upstream comm link to the rest of the system is located...

The next fantasy which needs to be addressed is the one of an alarm sensor loop or detector "which does not consume power until triggered" I have no idea how you are going to be able to do this inside of a self-contained cylinder mechanism since in the case of most of the "lower security applications" where your sort of upgrade would be desirable there will be no centralized access control system installed to supply the lock case with power... Since you are wishing to operate this lock using non-electronic keys, the authorized routine users would have no feedback available to them that would alert them of the power supply of the "security device" being close to failure and any sort of sounder to alert to low battery life remaining would only make the problem worse...

How would your self contained system inside the cylinder be able to alert more than a low power local sounder without being hardwired into a system which is not able to be tampered with or disrupted/jammed with equipment which is easily portable ? If a system is NOT being powered until it is triggered, it is NOT being continuously tested and polled as to its current condition state and can definitely be "interrupted" so that when you do activate it, it can not report your intrusion to the central monitoring system to alert the operators to what you are doing... The LOSS of communication with a portion of an access control or alarm system is in and of itself an alarm point and would definitely be investigated to determine what components failed and trigger an increased presence of security patrols until the system is returned to normal operations...

Alarms require integrity checking of all circuits so that any attempt to tamper with them is detected as an "abnormal" condition which will either trip the alarm or signal some sort of trouble in the circuit protecting the secured spaces... A device which is not powering anything until it is triggered is vulnerable to tampering...

I highly doubt that your "dozen discreet components" could be made and used without a small custom produced circuit chip which will fit entirely within a lock cylinder can be made without costing a whole lot more than you are considering... Making something in a smaller/miniature size scale drastically increases its price unless you have an economy of scale of millions of units being produced... Making it so that it can withstand extremes in hot and cold temperatures and moisture will add to the cost... Making it so that it is contained only within the confines of the lock cylinder is required because you will not be able to upgrade all but a few existing locks to support your new technology...

So while it is a nice idea, it is not something that will be feasible or available for "lower security applications" anytime soon when there are less expensive alternatives like alarm systems where if you open the door (whether using a purloined key or a set of lock picks) you will also need a correct alarm code to be able to fully realize the potential value of being able to gain entry past the physical barriers obstructing free access to the protected space...

Real "Security" is made up of layers -- a system that relies ONLY on metal keys to operate it without the addition of an alarm system (which you seem to want to use a pick-sensor in the cylinder to initiate) as an added layer of protection will never be "pick-proof"... Your ideas require the alarm system's presence in order to be "triggered" by your proposed sensor devices... Why would someone need additional sensors placed inside the lock when the door opening itself is alarmed and the act of opening it without possession of the correct code would trigger an alarm -- it is not like there is anything is to be gained by picking the lock but not opening the door once it has been picked...

~~ Evan