Detecting picking

[vov35]

we generally assume that these things would be protected against destructive attack, ie hardened steel around components...wiring of course needs to be out of the way, but remember the point here is that they're on the opposite side of the door, meaning getting at the wiring wouldn't be an easy task.

Basically, the alarm would go before they had access to it. or security devices on other potential entrances would be triggered (if windows, for example, are of concern).

Also I've been assuming a door lock so far... but obviously I want to leave ideas versatile....

Something like this wouldn't work for a padlock...

[xBMW M3 GTR]

So far I'm not seeing too much wrong with this idea. Yeah there are some minor flaws pointed about, but not to be a jerk, but it seems nothing is going to satisfy Evan..

[Evan]

So far I'm not seeing too much wrong with this idea. Yeah there are some minor flaws pointed about, but not to be a jerk, but it seems nothing is going to satisfy Evan..

When the idea is one which is marketable as a product which would be sought out by people looking for real world security upgrades I will be satisfied...

The idea being thrown around here isn't marketable because it requires having an alarm system in place which it will trigger when someone "tampers" with the lock...

99.999999999% of buildings that have alarm systems installed would find no utility in having an additional sensor to trigger their alarms and today the money you would spend on such a device would be better spent on an additional CCTV camera installed at the opening you wish to protect more than any others in the building rather than a fussy lock cylinder filled with electronic sensors and some kind of controller to detect when it is being picked...

The market for such a device is older buildings without alarm systems or CCTV -- yet without basing the design of this device so that it can fit entirely within the cylinder you won't be able to install it in older lock sets without needing to replace hardware and upgrade to electrified lock cases -- oh and you need an alarm system while you are at it...

Why would someone want a lock technology which requires replacing the locking hardware when there are fully electronic (Cyberlock) and hybrid (Assa Cliq) lock cylinders which would serve a similar purpose and allow for event logging/access auditing which this "idea" for a cylinder which could detect picking is not capable of doing...

This is why I have continued qualms about the versatility of this lock... If it is only intended to be a novelty for those whom are paranoid about security (the same sort of people who have "safe rooms" built into their homes) or looking for totally unnecessary accessories, then fine, mission accomplished... But if it is something that is supposedly to be deployed in mainstream building security -- there is a lot left to be learned by the designers about large facilities and how such places operate before moving forward with this project...

~~ Evan

[xBMW M3 GTR]

So far I'm not seeing too much wrong with this idea. Yeah there are some minor flaws pointed about, but not to be a jerk, but it seems nothing is going to satisfy Evan..

When the idea is one which is marketable as a product which would be sought out by people looking for real world security upgrades I will be satisfied...

The idea being thrown around here isn't marketable because it requires having an alarm system in place which it will trigger when someone "tampers" with the lock...

99.999999999% of buildings that have alarm systems installed would find no utility in having an additional sensor to trigger their alarms and today the money you would spend on such a device would be better spent on an additional CCTV camera installed at the opening you wish to protect more than any others in the building rather than a fussy lock cylinder filled with electronic sensors and some kind of controller to detect when it is being picked...

The market for such a device is older buildings without alarm systems or CCTV -- yet without basing the design of this device so that it can fit entirely within the cylinder you won't be able to install it in older lock sets without needing to replace hardware and upgrade to electrified lock cases -- oh and you need an alarm system while you are at it...

Why would someone want a lock technology which requires replacing the locking hardware when there are fully electronic (Cyberlock) and hybrid (Assa Cliq) lock cylinders which would serve a similar purpose and allow for event logging/access auditing which this "idea" for a cylinder which could detect picking is not capable of doing...

This is why I have continued qualms about the versatility of this lock... If it is only intended to be a novelty for those whom are paranoid about security (the same sort of people who have "safe rooms" built into their homes) or looking for totally unnecessary accessories, then fine, mission accomplished... But if it is something that is supposedly to be deployed in mainstream building security -- there is a lot left to be learned by the designers about large facilities and how such places operate before moving forward with this project...

~~ Evan

The way I see it, a door is the first means of access in almost every situation. The Lock on the door is the first that need to be bypassed and then whatever alarms, sensors, cameras, etc. come next. If picking can be detected right from the start, the alarm is set off earlier in the situation of unauthorized entry. This alarm would likely scare away any criminal trying to get into the door. I believe its better to stop the criminal right from the start than delaying it. Just like my idea ("the semi pickable lock" now looking like the "unlikely but slimly possible to pick, lock") It keeps the picker out and an alarm triggering device could be set to go off after the trap is activated. This picker is now locked out and the alarm is set off..chances are he wont stick around after that alarm goes off. Its pretty much preventing the criminal from advancing any further on getting through a door he doesnt belong through.

[vov35]

I think xBMW pretty much said this, but:
If the alarm goes before they're through the door, a response can be enacted before entry has been gained.

It's comparing having the police show up with a burglar outside the house, still trying to get in, vs the burglar having already trashed a good portion of the house in search of valuables.

(no I'm not saying that a house is the best application, but the concept is exemplified there.

[xBMW M3 GTR]

I think xBMW pretty much said this, but:
If the alarm goes before they're through the door, a response can be enacted before entry has been gained.

It's comparing having the police show up with a burglar outside the house, still trying to get in, vs the burglar having already trashed a good portion of the house in search of valuables.

(no I'm not saying that a house is the best application, but the concept is exemplified there.

Thank you vov35. Thats pretty much what was being implied with my previous statement. Evan did talk about the security measures that paranoid home owners can take, but I do not think this crosses the line as far as being something to classify one as paranoid, though any step farther than this would cross that line, such as an alarm going off if someone does so much as walking up to the door (my neighbor across the street is knee deep in alarms and are always going off for the whole 3 block radius to hear.) Evan does seem to have some high standards as far as security goes. Not at all a bad thing, but I dont think this idea should go under minded. Without ditching the whole idea, Evan, what do you think can be done to help make this system more improved. I can tell you're someone who knows what the're talking about but I wouldn't want to see this or my idea be shut down.

[Evan]

Thank you vov35. Thats pretty much what was being implied with my previous statement. Evan did talk about the security measures that paranoid home owners can take, but I do not think this crosses the line as far as being something to classify one as paranoid, though any step farther than this would cross that line, such as an alarm going off if someone does so much as walking up to the door (my neighbor across the street is knee deep in alarms and are always going off for the whole 3 block radius to hear.) Evan does seem to have some high standards as far as security goes. Not at all a bad thing, but I dont think this idea should go under minded. Without ditching the whole idea, Evan, what do you think can be done to help make this system more improved. I can tell you're someone who knows what the're talking about but I wouldn't want to see this or my idea be shut down.

You would need some way of making sure your alarm is not falsely positive... I.E. the lock is really being "picked" with picking tools and is not merely being operated by someone trying to select the correct key out of a large ring of keys or someone who is confused or befuddled (by intoxication or old age) whom is attempting to gain entry using an incorrect key at a door to which they have a legitimate right of access to enter...

The police would deal with exactly 2 such calls to a location before slapping down a civil fine for each subsequent appearance due to such an alarm sensor OR could order its removal from the system...

The issue still remains that the market for which this device would have the most appeal to is as an upgrade where no alarm systems currently exist and the desired upgrade can be accomplished with a simple cylinder swap without ditching the installed hardware... If you can figure out that situation I would agree that your product would have an application in large multiple-unit apartment complexes which are required to have master keyed locks...

The only other issue I could see is that in order to allow your upgrade on an opening by opening basis you will either have to obtain the cylinders to be modified from the client in some cases or order them from the OEM in order to be able to match keyways to the existing system...

Those would be the biggest issues I see as needing to be addressed... Had you thought far enough into the process to be pondering keyway offerings ? Often that is the most important consideration in a partial security upgrade and was a sales feature of the original Schlage Classic Primus cylinders which to my knowledge is the only such non-electronic high-security lock upgrade which was guaranteed you could swap for any cylinder keyed any way in your existing system on a door by door basis without any need to re-key locks, the only requirement was to re-issue TMK's cut on the appropriate Primus keyblanks to the persons needing access to all areas of the facility...

~~ Evan

[vov35]

You would need some way of making sure your alarm is not falsely positive... I.E. the lock is really being "picked" with picking tools and is not merely being operated by someone trying to select the correct key out of a large ring of keys or someone who is confused or befuddled (by intoxication or old age) whom is attempting to gain entry using an incorrect key at a door to which they have a legitimate right of access to enter...

A key will always raise pins from front to back when inserted, which isn't the case with picking efforts.

[xBMW M3 GTR]

Picking from front to back is a bad habit of mine, though I still get many locks open this way. The way I see it, with each new lock idea, the creator has to see it from an experienced pickers point. Lets say this lock is installed on a home's door and a picker wants to get in. The picker notices the type of lock and is fully aware of the security settings on it, then picks from front to back. What do you think can be done to set off the alarm in this case?

[Evan]

You would need some way of making sure your alarm is not falsely positive... I.E. the lock is really being "picked" with picking tools and is not merely being operated by someone trying to select the correct key out of a large ring of keys or someone who is confused or befuddled (by intoxication or old age) whom is attempting to gain entry using an incorrect key at a door to which they have a legitimate right of access to enter...

A key will always raise pins from front to back when inserted, which isn't the case with picking efforts.

Saying that and being able to legally guarantee no false alarms are two separate things...

Sequence detection like that just increased the expense of this sensor as the logic capacity to detect a pattern like that is no longer a simple open/close switch and would have to fit inside a miniature brain inside the cylinder...

If this "device" can not fit entirely within the cylinder body itself including its power source you are creating something which will be "shooting for the sky" when you attempt to sell it to someone as an additional gizmo to connect to their already deployed alarm system... The major market for such a device is where no alarm systems exist and where it can be installed on an opening by opening basis without replacing the currently installed hardware and remain compatible with the existing keying system...

If you are looking at this as something that needs to be detected, and that it is valuable to already adequately protected and alarmed premises on that basis alone, you are missing the point and you will only have interest from the security paranoid types who will always buy into the latest and greatest unnecessary security items because they have "issues"...

~~ Evan

[raimundo]

Right now I am thinking about how to difinatively identify and active persistant threat, who has been going through drawers which until its fixed later today have no locks, excepting a hidden screw near the back of the drawer, that this person has already forced open leaving a gouge trace in the side of the drawer, and who then having discovered the means of locking in a dark small area near the back of the cabinet, unscrewed the the screw completely because she didn't understand that it only has to be backed out a bit, she then really showed her hand by replacing the screw by starting a new screw hole.

I will be installling a micro switch in the cabinet, that will activate an output, (im not saying what that is, maybe later after this mousetrap catches the mouse)

after all its not really about detecting lockpicking its about detecting illegal entry. but if you are looking for attempted lockpicking on a new lock, well look for the scratches on the lock face and the pins or wafers, perhaps you could put some UV thief detection powder inside the lock then use a glove when you are using your key and keep your key inside the glove when you take it off by turning the glove inside out on the key. that powder gets everywhere, so it has to be handled carefully. you might even buy an extra lock so that the scratches and the powder can be removed from the installation when the active persistent threat is no longer active.

you might also put a digital audio recorder near the lock, set on voice activation, which simply detects sound and this could be the pins being manipulated. the recorder will also give the time when this is happening, which in the case I am thinking about, seems to be late at night.

several years ago, there was a show on discovery channel about to 'ex burglars' named matt johnston and douglas rainy, and in one episode, they were securing a small shotgun shack in connecticut where a woman lived with her two teenage daughters, and one of the simple and cheap traps they provided was a motion activated camera like a game camera but small and flat like a modern pocket digital camera.

I have not located this devise yet, and I don't know how to get that information from the discovery channel.

does anyone know the name and source for such an urban thief trap?

[dls]

Ok heres my two cents worth.

Take any barrel drill a hole in the back insert a seizmic detector like a mini microphone designed to detect vibration. Attach a simple bit of hardware programmed to detect vibration and give it some reasonable limits based on extensive testing eg. inserting incorrect, keys traffic noise and so on, the box will be able to detect incorrect keys because it will hear the clicks of the key passing each pin and will have a limit of say 10 attempts in 5 mins.
If the box detects picking vibrations or bumping it will trigger the alarm.

The key here is to add some intelligence to the lock the box would only have to be the size of a matchbox and would be the part that determines if there is an attack based on reasonable limits. These types of systems are already in use on safes and vaults on externally mounted sensors it is a tried and trusted technology which seems to be pretty reliable
The main advantage is that it can be fitted to almost any lock and retrofitted to some and there is no need to get involved in multiple sensors on the springs or mechanical switches which fail all the time or any other complications to reduce reliability. As for the brains they are already out there

[vov35]

How about a set of discreetly placed pins that don't bind anything, but would be pressed on by a key during operation. Then, if these aren't depressed appropriately at the time of the lock turning, they would signal to an alarm immediately.

Kinda the opposite of a passive sidebar, just making sure that there IS a key in the keyway, as opposed to some minimally voluminous lockpick. If carefully designed, it could alarm when a spool goes into a false set....

[dls]

How about a simple indicator like a toilet lock which shows green when the lock is used normally and switches to red when a wrong key is tried or picking is attempted
It could be a mechanical system and would let you know if there was a unsucessful attempt or if someone was trying to get access to a room. It would act as a deterrent to such attacks as you would know about it. Obviously if you could pick it then you could unset it but the time would be the factor especially if you where trying to do it covertly.