Practice lock problem..

[tfjh]

Hi I did several searches but couldn't find this anywhere..

I was making a practice lock with three pins and aswhile I was removing the key *doh* slipped and the chamber
straightend inline and came out a notch.. leaving me with the key stuck, can't push/pull it out or twist it get a pick in and don't see a shim
being any help...
Any ideas or would scrapping it be the best option?

Cheers.

(have a photo but won't let me upload it.)

[Raymond]

Don't feel too bad. You are not the only one who has made that goof. Congratulate your self that there are only three pins involved.

With the good info from your first post, the cylinder is pinned to three pins. Were you using the 1,2 &3 positions or spread out?

Let's presume that you used the first three positions. The first bottom pin has moved out or half way out of the cylinder and if it can be removed from the plug good. If not then it is nothing more than a dead pin and serves only to get in the way and not to lock the lock.

The top pin from space 1 has dropped into the bottom pin hole in space 2 on the plug. The top pin from space 2 has dropped into the bottom pin hole in space 3 on the plug. The top pin from space 3 has dropped into the bottom pin hole of space 4 on the plug only there is no bottom pin.

This lock can still be picked very close to normally. The 2 and 3 bottom pins will pick normally. The top pin in plug space 4 must be lifted to the shear line between the top pin and the spring. This is no different than normal picking. You can also use a form of over lifting on the last pin. Simply lift the top pin back up beyond the shear line using a curved pick.

Use gentle turning pressure as the only really bad thing that might happen is that the spring can be warped and twisted. If you force the plug you will definitely wrap the stretched out spring around the plug. This damage is usually beyond recovering the lock for normal use. If the plug turns about 5 degrees and hangs you have captured the spring and must back up.

If the lock is not installed, you can cheat the devil by shimming it from the back. Use a pick to carefully lift the pins. It doesn't matter whether the shim goes between the top pin and the spring or below the top pin, just dont be fooled by sliding the shim into the spring. You can even do a combination of shimming and picking by shimming the last pin and picking the first two.

In conclusion, this is just another twist on picking. It is a puzzle to solve. Think your way through each step of the problem and you will be successful.

Be thankful it is not a six pin Almont padlock or an Abus padlock where the cylinder retaining pin has shot up into the spring chamber. Been there, done that, and cried a little.

[tfjh]

Cheers for the reply and detailed description (going to add it to list of fixes for 'ron ) but the main problem is that the
key is jammed in the lock so i can't get to the offending pins...

is it possible i may have put in the wrong driver pin (one too small) and had it go past the shear line and roll to stop from being able to
remove the key?
I have re-pinned this particular cylinder a couple times but
the sneaky driver pins decided to make a jump for freedom, there were only two sizes so I just lined it all up on the bench before re-assembling so dont think it
was that..

Im still on the basics, comfortably picking economy master lock padlocks and whitco pin tumblers so any enlightenment on what has actually happend inside would be appreciated..

[EmCee]

I think the problem is that the OP said the key is stuck in the cylinder and can't be removed.

Raymond's diagnosis is surely correct, but it's going to be very difficult to slide a pick in and work the pins unless the key is a loose fit in the keyway. Might be possible to slide an extractor in and lift all the pins then shim from the back, but can't be sure and wouldn't be easy if the shoulder is hard against the keyway. If the rear of the keyway is open, you could try using the extractor from the back as well.

Another alternative might be to drill the caps holding the pins/springs - but you'd then have to tap the holes and use grub screws or find another way to hold the pins in afterwards (there are a couple of ideas for this elsewhere on the site). But whether it's worth the time and hassle depends on you.

Cheers...

[EmCee]

Sorry...meant to cancel/back on the last post when I saw another had been added to the thread while I was typing...

....so yes, the problem is the key in the lock with the shoulder tight to the keyway....rest of my comments stand...is the rear of the keyway open to you?

Cheers...

[tfjh]

Just a couple more photo's if it helps..

back of the lock


the lock is fairly loose, bit of give in all directions about a mm..

[Squelchtone]

Hi,

Turn it upside down so the bible (pin stacks / the capped holes you see) are facing the floor. place it on the edge of a table or counter and smack it the lock with a rubber mallet or screwdriver handle, while at the same time, trying to pull the key or the entire key and plug out of the lock.

If smacking it with a screwdriver handle doesn't work, take the lock in your hand, with the bible still facing the floor, and slam the lock onto the table or counter edge and try to time it so you can pull on the key or key and plug and he same time. If all goes well, the pins and springs inside will move out of the way for just a second allowing you to pull out the key or the key and plug.

Good luck!
Squelchtone

[EmCee]

...if Squelchtone's idea doesn't work...

It won't be easy but try using an extractor to lift the pins from the back and shim as you go. You might have to snag the side of the pin and lift it by friction and it might take a few times to lift it.

If you don't have an extractor, try a piece of wire - or if you have an old broken pick with no end to it, try using that, sanding the shaft to make it thinner.

Cheers...

[tfjh]

Cheers, will give it crack but i have a feeling it's going to be err.. character building lol

[smhatter]

I feel for you, I have personally killed 3 springs this way. I've never had much luck doing anything other than forcing it out, but i'm also fairly new to the whole thing. Hopefully you have better luck!

[Evan]

Hi,

Turn it upside down so the bible (pin stacks / the capped holes you see) are facing the floor. place it on the edge of a table or counter and smack it the lock with a rubber mallet or screwdriver handle, while at the same time, trying to pull the key or the entire key and plug out of the lock.

If smacking it with a screwdriver handle doesn't work, take the lock in your hand, with the bible still facing the floor, and slam the lock onto the table or counter edge and try to time it so you can pull on the key or key and plug and he same time. If all goes well, the pins and springs inside will move out of the way for just a second allowing you to pull out the key or the key and plug.

Good luck!
Squelchtone

@Squelchtone:

The thousand dollar question here is:

-- Is that even the key for the lock ?

Looks like it is not the key for that cylinder if it is "stuck"/locked in place...

If it was the proper key the shear line would be in the right place even if the plug slipped a chamber out while either inserting or removing it... I think the OP put the bottom pins in the wrong chambers...

~~ Evan

[FarmerFreak]

Assuming that all the info is correct. It's keyed to that key (I see no reason for that not to be the case). And only the first 3 chambers are pinned (I'm guessing it's the first 3 chambers, you did say only 3 pins).

Here is exactly what happened. You turned it to the neutral position while the cylinder was exactly one space out of the lock. Which resulted in the driver pin in the third chamber shooting into the fourth chamber in the plug. You can't pull the key out because the first key pin isn't lined up with a chamber in the housing.

The first thing to do would be what Squelchtone suggested, except one important difference. DO NOT pull the plug straight out while doing it. That will only result in the driver pins dropping into the 4th and 5th chambers making it that much harder to do again... Instead, while hitting the cylinder with a mallet, try turning the cylinder or push it the rest of the way.

If that doesn't work. The easiest thing to do would be to drill the cap off of the third chamber and take the pin and spring out of the lock that way. Then you'll have to make a new cap, or since it's just a practice cylinder I hope, use tape or something just as simple as a spring cap for that chamber.

[Raymond]

OK folks. I completely overlooked the fact that you said the key is still in the lock. I am trying to do this stuff way too late at night.

Were the three pins together or spread out? If spread out, You may have dropped all three top pins into the empty plug. Just drill out the plugs on top and refill the hole any easy way. (Glue, grub screws, solder, file a slot and bend the edges, etc.) If the three pins are together, if this is in fact the correct key and the pins are correct for the key then there may be only one top pin in the plug. From the rear photo we can see one pin touching the key. Is this a top pin? If yes, then a thin curved pick can push it back up into the spring chamber. The key wont turn now because the top pin is probably too long for this specific key cut and is blocking the shear line.

One other method that was touched on is to strike the key with a low mass, fast slap on the top edge of the key. Gentle turning pressure during the slap may spin the plug if the slapping force bounces the offending pins back upward. This is quite similar to how a pick gun works.

Dont destroy the lock as it still has a lot of practice potential. But if you do want to destroy it use a big hammer and flatten it out.

[Evan]

Assuming that all the info is correct. It's keyed to that key (I see no reason for that not to be the case). And only the first 3 chambers are pinned (I'm guessing it's the first 3 chambers, you did say only 3 pins).

Here is exactly what happened. You turned it to the neutral position while the cylinder was exactly one space out of the lock. Which resulted in the driver pin in the third chamber shooting into the fourth chamber in the plug. You can't pull the key out because the first key pin isn't lined up with a chamber in the housing.

The first thing to do would be what Squelchtone suggested, except one important difference. DO NOT pull the plug straight out while doing it. That will only result in the driver pins dropping into the 4th and 5th chambers making it that much harder to do again... Instead, while hitting the cylinder with a mallet, try turning the cylinder or push it the rest of the way.

If that doesn't work. The easiest thing to do would be to drill the cap off of the third chamber and take the pin and spring out of the lock that way. Then you'll have to make a new cap, or since it's just a practice cylinder I hope, use tape or something just as simple as a spring cap for that chamber.

@FarmerFreak:

I just had an "ah-ha" moment... The OP just removed bottom pins forgetting that the corresponding top pins would trap the plug... Oops...

@OP:

Next time you want to remove pins from a cylinder you have to take it apart all the way (remove the plug with a follower or substitute improvised tool) and remove the top pin and spring from the chambers you want to leave the bottom pin out of...

~~ Evan

[tfjh]

Wow didn't expect this much feedback ! What FarmerFreak described is what I believe has happend.
and yeah it's just a cheapie from the hardware store

Cheers for all the tips will give 'em a go!
..and post results hopefully..