Sargeant Pepper's Lonely Picking Band

by **redsox88** » 22 Sep 2004 9:34

I enjoy fiddling around with locks as kind of a hobby and a party trick. I'm fairly good with my hook pick on pin and tumblers with sloppy tolerances and easy pin combos.

Now I'd like to get better, but I think I've hit a wall. My house (renting) has mid-grade, controlled Sargeant locks with a standard 6-pin tumbler. They aren't high security (no side bar, ASSA-style, no patented keys), but I have not been able to pop even one of them after hours and hours of trying.

I'm getting frustrated. I've trying raking, and it feels like I can generally get 4-5 pins to set, but I can't seem to get the last 1 or 2 even picking individually. I think the locks may have mushroom drivers, but I'm not really sure and I think I just want to invent excuses.

Do you have any advice for someone who's finished with the easy kwik-set style locks and wants to move on to a more challenging puzzle? Any good books or videos out there? I have a very basic pick set...just 10 tools including tension wrench. Should I get a better one with a real rake pick? I'm looking for anything to help me get over the wall.

Thanks.

by **Exodus5000** » 22 Sep 2004 10:14

Two points of advice:
Firstly practice single pin picking more so over raking. Most prefer the short hook or half diamond. I'm a fan of hooks.

Secondly: Once you know how a lock operates and what kind of pins it has then the only thing left to do is pick it. There's no real secret trick of the trade. You can play around with the amount of tension to maximize the amount of feedback you get from your pick. Usually a lighter amount of tension is best.

The thing IMHO that makes picking a difficult lock so frusterating is that it is hard to measure progress unless you open the lock. Try to keep from experience this frusteration with the knowledge that if you keep at it, the lock will eventually open, it's just a matter of time.

Back when I was learning to pick spool pins (It was a master 141 dlf - slightly more difficult than your run of the mill master 140) it took me a solid month of practice before I could understand everything I was feeling inside the lock. At the risk of sounding like Romstar, theres more to "understanding" the feedback/feeling of a lock than reading a post and knowing on an intellectual level what it is supposed to be like. It's honestly a lot of muscle memory. You have to teach your hands and fingers what it is like through a lot of practice, and more likely than not you'll have an "Ah ha!" experience. That is to say, once your hands know what they're doing you'll be able to open that lock like nothing, and do it every time. Bonus! Each time you teach your hands something new, like how to work with security pins or sidebars, that knowledge pretty much carries over to a whole mess of other locks.

You'll wonder why it was you couldn't open the lock before becuase it seems so easy now.

by **Varjeal** » 22 Sep 2004 10:19

You may be jumping up a bit too quick, and I understand your frustration.

If you are on good terms with your local locksmith, and you're familiar with disassembling kwikset locks, get yourself a handful of spool or serrated driver pins, and some extra springs. Then rekey a spare kwikset and practice on that for awhile.

Once you've mastered that, step up to a higher quality Schlage or other type of lock with 5 pins (capability for six) that will have tighter tolerances. Practice on that with regular pins until you have it mastered, then add spool/mushroom/serrated pins to the lock and progress from there.

Once you've mastered THOSE, your Sargents are the next step.

In essence, this process is refining two things:

1. Your tension sensitivity, which is very important.
2. Your pick "feeling" allowing you to be able to tell when a particular stack is truly set as opposed to "false" setting either too high or low.

by **Mad Mick** » 22 Sep 2004 16:46

A point that has been missed here:
If you don't own the lock, or have permission to pick the lock...don't! As you are renting, if you 'obviously' mess up the lock, i.e. break a pick inside it, you are likely looking at more than the cost of a practice lock, in locksmith fees. The callout fee alone, will be more than the cost of a lock of your own. :wink:

by **TimmieTheGeek** » 3 Oct 2004 12:52

As a new, enthusiastic member to this field, I have the same anxious desire to learn all I can. But fortunately I'm old enough (51) to recognize the importance of patience and learning the basics first, and really well.

So I'm going slow. When I'm playing with a lock and it pops open and I get over my mild heart attack of success, I try to remember the feel of what it took to get that pop. :shock:

What I'm interested in here is a suggested progression list of locks to work with as I get better. I searched around and didn't find this type of list, or if I did I didn't realize it for what it was.

Can anyone offer a general easy to difficult list of locks to use as my educational base? I have the MIT guide printed out and laying on my work table, along with some other docs I found in this forum. I got the Eddie Wire book and the Easy Pickings book that came with it from South Ord. I like to have several books since something one person says always seems to make more sense than when another person says the same thing. So I'll probably buy a couple more books as I go along.

But I also wanted to know what the more experienced folks would suggest as a list of recommended locks, in order, to learn on, and where to get the more advanced locks since I don't see them on the shelf at Home Depot or similar stores.

I sent off for the FB course info, received it, and am waiting for them to give me a better price offer. Then I'll dive into that with gusto.

Thanks for being there everybody. There isn't another forum on the net that is as educational and professional as this one.

by **TimmieTheGeek** » 3 Oct 2004 13:03

I should have realized that the answer to my question is in this same post, courtesy of Varjeal. Although he didn't list specific models, he did provide a good road map for me to follow.

Sorry for acting like I couldn't read! :oops:

But I still think it would be useful to have a list, maybe one that constantly evolves, that would show an overview of most of the locks out there and where they fit in the difficulty list.

by **logosys** » 3 Oct 2004 14:04

From my limited experience, as far as deadbolts go, here was my progression

Kwikset
Schlage
Yale
Falcon
Sargent
Best
Medeco <---- Where I am now

by **Romstar** » 3 Oct 2004 15:27

Well, given that there are a huge number of locks out there, and that you really have a lot of choices, here is what I think is a good progression.

Weiser, Kwikset, Master, Bird
Kwiskset Max & UltraMax, Weiser Prestige series
Ilco (Old series) Yale (Old series)
Schlage, Yale
Falcon, Best, American, Yale X5
Corbin/Ruswin
Schlage Primus, Kaba Peaks, Medeco (1st Gen)
Medeco Bi-Axial, Corbin High Security

Now, as for picking these things. Start off with the lightest tension you can manage. See if you can get a pin to set. ANY PIN. If that doesn't work, increase the tension a bit and try again. Do this until a pin catches. This is your base line tension.

Close your eyes, relax. (Use the force....) :wink:

Just let your fingers feel what is going on. Get familiar with how the pick catches on the pins. Learn to count the pins as the pick hits them. Try to feel the slight movement in the tension wrench as a pin moves past the shear line.

All of these things are talking to your hands. Exodus had it right. It's muscle memory. Let your fingers draw a picture in your mind of what is inside that lock. Feel how the side wards turn your pick to one side or the other. In yales, the pin cores are drilled through the wards, and a hook can go from twisted to the right to straight up again.

The best lock you can get for learning these feelings are a decent quality old style Yale and a Residential Schlage. Both of these locks are well made, and you get great feeling from them. Learn to trust that little snap in your knuckles, the tiny vibration in your finger tips. The pop that almost makes a sound. Each of these things is telling you something through your tools. Learn to "listen" to them.

I feel like I'm teaching the "zen" of picking here, but it really is the best way to understand this stuff. If you watch a master wood worker, or a master auto body tech. you will see the same techniques. They feel for small imprefections in their craft that their eyes can't see. The same happens here, only it is by necessity.

Here is where it gets really screwy. You have to relax, right down to your breathing. Snipers are taught to regulate their breathing. Right down to the difference in the moments they should squeeze the trigger. The same occurs here. Your hands, and especially your thumbs amplify your pulse. As your breathing and heart rate increase, so does the rate of your pulse. Those tiny pulses you never take notice of are then transfered back into your hands through the very picks you are trying to learn to feel.

Relax, calm down, close your eyes and "listen" to the picks.

Now, if you don't think I have completely lost my mind, remember this when you are practicing. Try it, and see if you notice a difference. Don't bother getting angry at the lock, because it really couldn't care. No point in being angry at something that doesn't know now is there?

Good luck,
Romstar

by **TimmieTheGeek** » 3 Oct 2004 15:54

Now that's a reply that makes me glad I asked the question.

Thanks for the raw data and also for the more cerebral stuff. I read a post on this forum several days ago that asked for the best light to see inside the lock. The response was that we need to be able to do this in the dark. So I have been closing my eyes and just "looking" for the feel since then and your post supports that.

My learning syllabus is now much more complete, thanks!

by **alias** » 4 Oct 2004 4:19

For a good set of exercises to follow, take a look at this link [link here] over on Matt Blaze's crypto.com. A lot of the lessons focus on picking one then two and then three pin stacks and determining the picking order and pin state (set vs unset vs false-set) based on the feedback you feel, another set work on the differences in technique required for different combinations of pin heights. I thoroughly recommend both reading and practicing the exercises regularly when you're first getting started - develop good habits early on and they'll stick.

It seems to me that a lot of people prod and poke away till they can open a specific lock and claim henceforth that they've defeated brand 'X' without ever having understood why it opened. These exercises really develop the technique of analysing what you're feeling and picking based on that rather than the prod, poke and hope method.

by **TimmieTheGeek** » 4 Oct 2004 5:22

Thanks for another great document. I agree that forming good habits early is much preferred over having to unlearn bad ones first. I'm lucky to have that luxury if I will just humble down and be patient.

I think this forum is a tremendous resource and hope to contribute someday to return all the favors it has offered me.

by **Luke** » 4 Oct 2004 5:48

It was 20 years ago today, that Sargent Pepper told the band to play. So let me introduce to you. Common now its eeeaaasssy Sargent Peppers lonely harts club bbaaannnnd...

Thanks an awesom song.

Keep on swinging,
Luke Cahir

by **Romstar** » 4 Oct 2004 5:51

For the love of god, at least get the song RIGHT. :lol:

It was 20 years ago today,
Sgt. Pepper taught the band to play.
They've been going in and out of style,
But they're guaranteed to raise a smile.

So let me introduce to you,
The antidote for all your tears...
SGT. PEPPER'S LONEY HEARTS CLUB BANNNAAAND

Romstar

by **Luke** » 4 Oct 2004 5:55

Oh be quiet... obviously you dont keep swinging...

Keep on killing me,
Luke

by **alias** » 4 Oct 2004 6:27

Keep on killing me,

Killing me softly?

Sargeant Pepper's Lonely Picking Band

Sargeant Pepper's Lonely Picking Band

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