Bumping Question

[chaos4zap]

I have been on this site for a little while now and there is one question that I've been wanting to ask and haven't yet. I certainly understand why discussion about safe's and the like is not allowed in open discussion, I also understand why some people are basically ignored when the context of their question seems to be "shady". What I don't understand is why there seems to be no objection to questions and even instructions on using and making "bump" tools. Anyone interested in picking as a hobby (which seems to be the intent of the open forums), surely wouldn't be content with just bumping locks open. I suppose that pick-guns would fall into the same category. I can only speak for myself, but I have never been interested in learning to bump and I have a gun, but almost never use it because to me it is all about conquering the lock manually. Maybe I'm missing something? Is there some legal issues that would only be specific to safes and not apply to locks in general? I grant the fact that a safe is almost always going to be used for something valuable, but so are high security padlocks and door locks. I'm just looking for a little clarification on, what appears to be, inconsistencies in site policy. That being said (or asked), I love this site and owe much of my progress to the wise and very skilled people that frequent these forums.

[stjohn]

Great question! The emperor wears no clothes. Maybe it is because with bumping the cat is out of the bag so to speak, everybody knows about it. With the other subjects like safe opening for instance this knowledge is still closely guarded and not many people know about it so it still makes sense to keep it secret. I work as a locksmith and make money from doing it, if everybody knew how to do my job I wouldn't have one Then again maybe they don't know either!

cheers,
st.john

[chaos4zap]

A search for "safe cracking" on amazon yields 447 results. With picking, the majority of what you read on this site...you can also find in one of the numerous books on the subject and I would imagine the same is true of safes. So it would appear that the cat's only still in bag, in as much, as the policy of this site is not to discuss it. People are still free to buy any book and learn themselves. So....that leads me back to my first question of why this special, super-secret status of safes on here. The only thing I can figure, is that most criminals are just going to kick a door in, not pick the lock (by any means). With safes, that option, largely, isn't there. There is no "kicking" in the door to a safe. If the thing is bolted to the ground, or two big to carry, which I would think would include most safes....then the only way in, would be to "crack it". It still seems to me that anyone bent on getting into a safe, either will buy a book and learn enough to be capable of doing so...or they won't. I still don't see how discussion on a forum like this would make it any less, or more, likely to equip a potential thief to go commit a crime. Since I'm sure safes are much more difficult to learn, it seems that this scenario is less likely than, essentially, freely giving out all the info one wants on picking locks.

[chaos4zap]

Also, since I'm sure a locksmith has to pick many more locks (which one can freely learn how to do on here), than crack safes....I can't imagine a motivation would honestly be job security.

[keysman]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10782

1) Some of the material posted in the advanced forums is of particular risk of being misused by someone who is inclined to do illegal and immoral things with it.
2) Many members of this site feel additional confidence posting material in the advanced forums if they are concerned that this material my otherwise be leeched from this site and posted/sold elsewhere. Having the material available only to "trusted" lp101 members adds a layer of protection of this material, particularly because the material is not viewable by unregistered guests. It is important that there still be a screening process which continues to make advanced members comfortable.

[globallockytoo]

+1 Keysman.

happy forthcoming 8th birthday!

[chaos4zap]

I appreciate the reply, but I am still not getting it. First of all, almost anything poste don this site could be used for illegal purposes and one could argue, as I did, that the talk of bumping, snap guns and the like would be more likely to be used for illegal purposes than the hobbyist that actually wants to learn how locks function and beat them manually...but there is little to no hesitation in discussing those topics.

On the 2nd point,

With the exception of the homemade tools, there is very little information in the picking sections that is not already in one of the 10+ books I have on the subject. In fact, it seems that most people post questions, not because they can't find the information themselves, but because they don't want to put the leg work in, or don't have access tot he materials (most, if not all, freely downloadable in a matter of a couple of hours). Similarly, there are plenty of books on safe-cracking.....is there really super-secret special knowledge discussed in the VIP forums of this site that couldn't be found in those books, if they were obtained? Are there safe ninjas posting on this site that are really concerned about having there idea's stolen? People freely post pictures and instructions on making, just about anything, in the picking section. This wouldn't be much of a site if everyone that learned a new technique, created a unique tool, or had some valuable insight decided that they just wanted to keep that close to their chest...and not share with anyone. I'm confident that there is a legitimate reason for not discussing safe's on here...but I'm not sure I find your points compelling.

[keysman]

I appreciate the reply, but I am still not getting it. First of all, almost anything posted on this site could be used for illegal purposes and one could argue, as I did, that the talk of bumping, snap guns and the like would be more likely to be used for illegal purposes than the hobbyist that actually wants to learn how locks function and beat them manually...but there is little to no hesitation in discussing those topics.



On the 2nd point,

With the exception of the homemade tools, there is very little information in the picking sections that is not already in one of the 10+ books I have on the subject. In fact, it seems that most people post questions, not because they can't find the information themselves, but because they don't want to put the leg work in, or don't have access to the materials (most, if not all, freely downloadable in a matter of a couple of hours). Similarly, there are plenty of books on safe-cracking.....is there really super-secret special knowledge discussed in the VIP forums of this site that couldn't be found in those books, if they were obtained? Are there safe ninjas posting on this site that are really concerned about having there idea's stolen? People freely post pictures and instructions on making, just about anything, in the picking section. This wouldn't be much of a site if everyone that learned a new technique, created a unique tool, or had some valuable insight decided that they just wanted to keep that close to their chest...and not share with anyone. I'm confident that there is a legitimate reason for not discussing safe's on here...but I'm not sure I find your points compelling.

When I was in school , we used to call your type of logic: Potatoe Logic:
Everyone who eats potatoes eventually dies. Therefore potatoes are poisonous.

[chaos4zap]

I believe what you are referring to is the argument from final consequences. It is also referred to as confusing correlation, with causation (B follows A, therefore; A must have caused B) and it would be useful if you pointed out where I used that logic. As it is, you're just being dismissive. This is usually the first line of defense when one does not have a good rationale to provide. How about . ..thieves that steal things from safes that they don't own, know how to crack them...therefore, everyone that knows how to crack safes is (or at least, will be) a thief? From what I gather...that seems to be your argument, but thank you for reminding me what this flaw in logic is called.

[globallockytoo]

This site chooses to set it's policies in it's own way. If you agree to the site's policies then you will enjoy the fruits it bears. if you choose to question the sanity or ask for more reasons (like I once did), it could raise the ire of mods and admins to the point where they ban you or simply ignore you.

It is your choice to come here and participate. Questions are good but the sites policies came about through years of trial and error.

erring on the side of caution is more favorable in my opinion.

Once you earn the privilidge of entering the advanced forums you might understand why some information is better protected.

[globallockytoo]

kinda reminds me of The Charge of The Light Brigade by Tennyson. 'Mine is not to question why. Mine is but to do or die'.

[chaos4zap]

I have nothing but respect for the powers that be to do whatever it is they want to do. It's their site and they are free to set the rules as they choose. I had only asked out of sheer curiosity. I thought that maybe there were specific laws applying to safes that lock-picking didn't fit neatly into. I would have been quite content with a MOD responding with "it's our site and we will do as we please" It's not even a gripe for me, I love the site, I was only curious. I did find it humorous though that this other guy shows up and argues that I'm using "potato" logic. I'm sure a simple google search would have demonstrated that this logical fallacy already has a name. This is in addition to the point that he had used the safe flawed logic in his post. For some people, pretending to be a fancy pants is a hobby. It's slightly annoying.

[Evan]

I did find it humorous though that this other guy shows up and argues that I'm using "potato" logic. I'm sure a simple google search would have demonstrated that this logical fallacy already has a name. This is in addition to the point that he had used the safe flawed logic in his post. For some people, pretending to be a fancy pants is a hobby. It's slightly annoying.

@chaos4zap:

For your future reference keysman is a Moderator -- SITE RULES: READ HERE BEFORE POSTING!

You will find his name listed at the bottom of the posting with the site rules with the Admins and other Moderators...

Open foot, insert mouth... Strike that, reverse it...

~~ Evan

[Legion303]

Bump tools are common knowledge and information on bumping can be had by watching the news. Safe discussion can get the site owner sued under the wrong set of circumstances. Closing thread as redundant.

-steve