Overly Elaborate Anti-Picking Suggestion

[ktech]

Like the title says - this is an overly-elaborate idea, but I figure it might get some wheels turning.
Basically my thought would be to have each driver pin in the lock complete an electric contact when it gets pushed high enough up that the key functions.
This could be accomplished fairly easily, although miniaturization requirements would make it fairly expensive... think two small electrical contacts on either side of the cylindrical hole the driver pin moves up and down in (I'm certain there's a word for this but it escapes me at the moment).

Anyway, the lock would be able to detect when the driver pins are pushed up, and it could disable the lock in one way or other if the pins were not all triggered within a certain time constraint, say 2-5 seconds.

Combine this with security pins and other conventional security measures, et voila. Unless you can beat the clock, good luck getting in.

Granted, there are some downsides - bumping could conceivably work (although you'd obviously want to include some conventional anti-bump measures) and a pick gun could also possibly work, but you could also go a bit more elaborate to prevent these: record the "fingerprint" of the proper key being inserted and unless the electronic pattern is within certain constraints of that "fingerprint", the lock is disabled.

I warned you, it's overly elaborate, and would probably be crazy-expensive, but it could work.








Cue reasons it couldn't in 3... 2... 1...

[fgarci03]

That's a good idea IMO, but if you can get it raked open in that time, the electronic feature wouldn't do much...

Anyway, there are many locks very difficult to rake, specially in under 5 secs, so it's a good idea.



Now that we're talking about it:
Imagine a lock with pins that have a tiny wire though them. Each side of the chamber would have another wire that would complete the circuit when the pins are at their correct height, allowing the plug to rotate.

But on this case, the pins wouldn't have to align at a sheerline. Just be lifted untill that point. Without a sheerline, you would have no feedback to know when the pins are set. And to allow the plug to rotate, all the pins would have to be on the correct height AT the same time for 1/4 second. That would prevent some crazy dumb lucky dude from bumping it once in his entire life. But still be fast enough so you woudn't have to wait to rotate the key.

The pins would have to be high enough for not allowing to overlift them and make the connections yourself from under them.
The amount of current in which the lock operates could also be random, not allowing for external sources of power to open the lock without knowing the exact amount needed. This would be irrelevant on the operation of they key, but relevant on an electronic bypass.

Is that a good idea?

[mh]

You know, I think these are interesting ideas - but if you put electronics into a lock, why bother with a mechanical key interface?

Cheers
mh

[fgarci03]

@mh
You do have a point. But what I don't like on just electronic devices is that, if you use a code, a shoulder surfing would knock tour whole security down. If an electronic key, the code of the key could be simulated by a machine. And brute force an electronic device isn't that hard if you have the knowledge and gear for it.

This relies on a mechanical interface to activate an electronic (electric on this case) device. Without it providing any feedback, you would have to try every key bittings possible (but any lock can be opened that way).

And this I'd a very simple electric device. A small battery that, when you close the circuit, will release the plug and allow it's rotation. Virtually no battery consumed, as it only activates when the key aligns the pins. Even les than a watch..


This is, as always, just asb opinion, and I do like to be corrected!

[IndigoChild]

You know, I think these are interesting ideas - but if you put electronics into a lock, why bother with a mechanical key interface?

Cheers
mh

Actually if you have a mechanical key to operate an electronic lock it could serve as additional security protection while still remaining cost effective. Medeco has their new Cliq keys that have an electronic interface and unless the correct transponder key is inserted it will not turn. But why make the keys more expensive. You can use something like PATS and VATS that older cars had to keep the keys about 12 bucks a pop. Now those Cliq keys medeco has are bitted but they are all the same. If you have a small computer run an integrety check through the pins it could go into lockdown mode for one hour and even if the person picks it correctly the plug wont turn. Insert the right key for 5 mins and bypass this feature. Admittedly you will end up with a strange key system if you cram electronics into it but it would be an exceptional addition to residential locks. But one problem I see is that locks only keep an honest man honest. Though statistically most robberies only happen with unlocked doors, many of them will still access your home through other means. Which means you need to bump it up from residential to commercial grade.

[ktech]

@mh
With a fully electronic lock, there's no fallback in the event of an emergency - with the lock design I've suggested, a lack of electricity results in a fail-safe condition, while still retaining a minimum level of security. Most fully-electronic locks would default to a fail-secure condition (as far as I know).

This design would be useful for things like residential buildings, where you don't want to render them inaccessible in the event of a power failure.

@fgarci03
First of all, I want to correct what I perceive to be a slight misunderstanding - I am not suggesting the electronics allow the lock to open, but rather they would only act (so to speak) when some sort of picking or bumping attempt was detected and disable the lock.

That's a very interesting idea - might be more applicable in situations like a commercial building or high-security environment where you're very unlikely to lose power for a significant period of time (or have a backup generator/battery system). Not sure if the idea of a random amount of current would work, but you could easily design circuitry that would not accept anything but a very specific acceptable voltage (similar to how the Apple iPad will only accept 2.1 amps / 5.1v at 10w).

That said, I'm not sure I see the advantage of this over a fully-electronic lock, keyed with some sort of electronic contact-only token (not RFID of course).

@IndigoChild
The big advantage to this product is that it wouldn't require a fancy electronic key - simply a correct conventional key. Of course that renders it vulnerable to key duplication, but most security systems are vulnerable to that in one way or other.

Thanks for the comments!

[fgarci03]

Uops, thanks for correcting


Anyway, how I think it should be powered is with a watch battery for example. So even in a power down it would work. It has virtually no consumsion as I said before.

[ktech]

A watch battery would be a good option, or even a rechargeable battery with a solar panel somewhere would probably provide more than enough power to keep it running for quite some time, if you were going to go really nuts.

[GWiens2001]

Some locks use size C batteries. Those would last a while. Or perhaps a 9 volt battery. I can't see a watch battery running a solenoid of any kind for very long.

I do like the idea of a solar cell for recharging the batteries.

Gordon

[ktech]

I do have another concept in my head for charging/powering an electronic lock, but I don't really want to share it openly just yet...

[Squelchtone]

I do have another concept in my head for charging/powering an electronic lock, but I don't really want to share it openly just yet...

would it be a shake weight hanging on a string next to the door?

if you say rotating the knob left and right in order to power a magneto, they already do this on safe locks.

My contribution to your original idea would be to not have an over all timer on when the pins are moved into correct height, but the order in which they are. The real key inserted into the lock interacts with pins in that order, so if someone goes in and picks the deepest pin but does not touch the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th first, then it would detect that as a picking attempt and power a solenoid to block the lock. but I think it would be better to have the solenoid be the 2nd point of locking, and have it be always on via spring bias, and when the key is inserted and pins lifted in correct order of operation, this would create a normal shearline AND energize the solenoid to pull it's plunger out of the plug and allow it to rotate. a ground and signal pad could be on the outer diameter of the plug, and use ^ shaped contacts in the shell of the lock that would use the springy-ness of the ^ bent metal contact to press against the signal and ground pads on the plugs surface.

Each pin stack when lifted would complete a circuit, and each circuit going to the pads on the plug would have an inline resistor like the GM resistor pellets called the VATS system, and the controller would look for the resistor values in order, or to add up to a certain number in Ohms of total resistance for all 5 pins stacks.

Not only could the lock retract the solenoid when the correct key is inserted, but it could have outputs on the board to send an alert to a remote location when an incorrect key is inserted, or when it detects a live picking attempt. *think* Sneakers movie "big guys with guns"

If that's too out there for you guys to follow, I can provide a diagram/drawing

Squelchtone

[mh]

BTW there are solenoids in watches, albeit small ones.
But then again, solenoids are the #1 problem in electronic locks with regard to manipulation - with big magnets, or bump hammers.

Cheers
mh

[ARF-GEF]

You could also possibly built an electric contact on the top of the keyway. And unless a key closes the contact (a pick gun or a rake wouldn't reach the top and the pins/the side depending on cosntruction at the same time), the lock stays closed.

[ktech]

I do have another concept in my head for charging/powering an electronic lock, but I don't really want to share it openly just yet...

would it be a shake weight hanging on a string next to the door?

if you say rotating the knob left and right in order to power a magneto, they already do this on safe locks.

How did you know?!? I bet you found my spare key under the doormat too...

And no, although that strikes me as a good solution as well.

Regarding your idea - I like it! Seems like a solution requiring a minimum of power and keeping it fairly simple as well. Wouldn't there be issues though if you had a key that, for example, had its tallest peak far away from the bow? If you had such a key, that would cause each pin to trigger as the key is being inserted. Does that makes sense?

[Quickpicknpay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you just pump the cylinder with a conductive liquid like saltwater or calcium chloride to close the circuit and then pick the lock?