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Commando Lock Prototypes

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby GWiens2001 » 20 Jul 2013 1:31

Two Commando padlocks.

These are courtesy of Patrick Smith, of Commando Lock Company. Many, many thanks for the preview of these prototypes.
Image

The most obvious difference in the above picture is the new matt chrome finish on the shackle. He describes it as "very durable, very strong and very rust proof".

The main attraction that can be shown in the pictures is the new Y1 keyway! This is a huge change, and will keep many beginner pickers out due to the difference in how open the keyway is.
Image

And the keys from the front:

Image

The bitting is intentionally mild, and Patrick had a couple of other updates disabled on these so the lock cylinder can be isolated for testing. Note that both of the keys have exactly the same bitting. More on that soon.

Image

Here they are with the pick used to open them.

Image

Inside where they are not as easily noticed, Patrick has included a few other treats. In addition to the normal spools they put into the locks, there are now serrated driver pins tossed into the mix. ***said in television spokesperson voice*** But wait! For Commando Lock Company, that's just not good enough! Now the prototypes are including not only spooled and serrated driver pins, but they are including serrated key pins!!! Not one or two or three, but five of them at no additional cost!!! WE'RE not done! as a special bonus Commando Lock Company's Prestigeous President has put in ... wait for it... wait for it... not just a bump pin. After all, numerous companies give bump pins. Commando had added even more innovation by including a serrated bump pin!

What is the matter with this guy? Doesn't he want anybody with a pick to be able to open the lock? In a personal interview ficticiously conducted last night, when asked that exact question, he answered "No! If they want to pick my locks, they are going to have to earn that ability. No stinking pick guns and bump keys are going to open my locks!

***Back to normal voice***

OK, now for the review. Grabbed one of the locks at random and one of Legion303's picks because it was closest to the couch where my beautiful wife and I were watching a movie. A little under two minutes later, the M1 fell victim to the pick and wrench. Took so long because my wife kept trying to hold my hand during the movie. That adds a level of difficulty.

Patrick, if you can add some feature that makes the picker's spouse show up and try to hold the picker's hand, it definately slows down the picker. It may be a tough feature to add, but if anyone can develop that feature, it is you.

The spool pins are what we have come to love about Commando Locks. But the serrated add a bit of difficulty. By feel, the serrations are more clearly defined than you find on American (brand) padlocks. It is not as easy with Patrick's serrated pins. It is not as easy as following clicks. These serrations are larger and deeper. (Filipe... mind your mannors!) :mrgreen: you can't just skip over them like with the American locks. They catch and feel like you really hit the shear line.

So, as the pins go, kudos, Patrick.

By the time I picked up the second Commando (with the Y1 keyway), I was thinking of how I was going to fly right through it. WRONG! It took almost 5 minutes to pick it the first time. Working those security pins within the Y1 keyway was certainly different that the M1 keyway. The Y1 keyway definately slowed down the picking process.

Patrick also had one lock pinned with brass springs, and the other with squid carcasses. OK, maybe they were not squid carcasses, they were stainless steel springs. Note to Patrick, probably not good to use squid carcases. First, the smell will draw every cat for blocks around. Hmmm. Maybe that is a benefit. It is hard to surriptitiously open a lock when there are 200 squid-starved cats trying to get at the lock. And talk about hard to make the picks work when you are battling paws and claws for the same lock.

The brass springs are softer, so will have a different feel than the stainless steel springs.

I can hardly wait for these to be production line locks. I'm going to get some for practice.

Again, my thanks to Patrick Smith for the sample and the additional info not posted here.

Gordon
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby dicey » 20 Jul 2013 3:02

The Y1 keyway was my suggestion to him.

We are in constant contact when it comes to advise and development. I have written several small reports with detailed pictures and I am still writing on the overall big report with suggestions, detailed pictures and prototyping etc.

Adrian
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby MBI » 20 Jul 2013 5:46

GWiens2001 wrote:The main attraction that can be shown in the pictures is the new Y1 keyway! This is a huge change, and will keep many beginner pickers out due to the difference in how open the keyway is.
Gordon

Just curious, but is it the Y1 keyway or Y11? If I remember right the Y11 has a very similar shape to the Y1 but is a lot smaller and narrower, more along the scale of a file cabinet key.

When Patrick was looking for keyway alternatives, several people on KP were talking about it in the forum and at one point a group was brainstorming in the chat room. They were trying to think of a small paracentric keyway which would be harder to pick than the M1, but be common enough that Commando Lock customers could still easily get key duplicates made almost anywhere that cuts keys. A few keyway ideas were tossed around, then the Y11 was suggested (for some reason I was thinking it was you Gordon, or Ed Smiley) and I don't recall anyone being able to think of a better alternative at the time.
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby GWiens2001 » 20 Jul 2013 8:09

MBI is correct, it is the Y11 keyway, though Patrick is referring to it as the Y1 keyway. For the sake of consistency, was using his terminology. Sort of using the term M1 for his normal keyway when the actual blank is a M10, and Master uses another term for the keyway.

The bitting is very simple on these locks because Patrick was wanting the differences between the keyways able to be discerned. Identical easy bitting makes it clear that the biggest difference is access via the keyway. Yes, they will have issues with differences in binding order, etcetera. But the largest differences is navigating the keyway.

A lot of people are giving great input to Patrick for Commando Locks. People like Dicey, MBI, Bosnian Bill, Ed Smiley, and far too many to name (and I do not know who all of them are) testing the locks and providing feedback to Patrick have given him great ideas for improving his locks. Not only do I thank Patrick, but also all of those who are helping to improve the locks around us. Know that Patrick feels the same way.

A bit out of practice picking, as lately work has been busy, and a lot of my lock time has been either researching locks or working on making keys. My picking times are getting faster working with these locks. But there is no question that it is more difficult to pick them with the new keyway and new pins. With the feedback dampening system (which was disabled on these prototypes for testing purposes) and normal bitting instead of the very simple bitting used for testing purposes, these locks will be quite a bit more secure than the first generation Commando Locks. And even those first generation locks were far more difficult to pick than a Master.

Gordon
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby dicey » 20 Jul 2013 9:04

It is the Y1 keyway. The Y11 keyway is only possible with locks that have a larger diameter and therefore having 6 pins most of the time. A lot of people were suggesting the Y11 but the Y11 does actually not work with the small core or it would be more complicated to produce it. That is why he decided to use the Y1 keyway. Actually the name should be Y1+ if I am not wrong.
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby GWiens2001 » 20 Jul 2013 10:03

dicey wrote:It is the Y1 keyway. The Y11 keyway is only possible with locks that have a larger diameter and therefore having 6 pins most of the time. A lot of people were suggesting the Y11 but the Y11 does actually not work with the small core or it would be more complicated to produce it. That is why he decided to use the Y1 keyway. Actually the name should be Y1+ if I am not wrong.


Top = Y1 blank. Middle = Commando Lock Company key. Bottom = ILCO AB62C (Y11 blank).

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby dicey » 20 Jul 2013 10:32

Last information I had was that it is going to be Y1+, now looking at your blanks I am not sure.

Lets just wait what he says :)
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby Evan » 20 Jul 2013 11:02

Hey guys:

It is not Y1 (Ilco # 999) nor Y11 (Ilco # 01122)

Yale used to make brass solid body padlocks that used this same keyway...

It looks to my eye to be Y200 for 5-pin and would be 997B if it were 4-pin...

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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby Wizer » 20 Jul 2013 11:48

I think that it is just so cool that a lock manufactorer actually listens to (and recognices) us hobbyists. Alltho it may be expecive to upgade locks, this way you'll end up with a supreme product.
I am a small business, but i would really like to sell this lock. Problem is that Finns do not really trust anything but Abloy. Thanks for listening to us (hobbyists) anyhow.
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby dicey » 20 Jul 2013 12:20

The Finns are used to very good quality then :)

The Germans usually only trust Abus even though most of their stuff is made in China now...
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby COMMANDOLOCKUSA » 20 Jul 2013 12:57

Gentlemen,

Y1 Y1 Y1...You are all correct. Thank you Gordon and the gents at keypicking.com for the Yale keyway suggestion. At the time the suggestion was the Y11 which is the same keyway as the Y1. The difference, as Dicey pointed out to me in many of our offline conversations is the shoulder length of the key. I had that confirmed at the factory when they questioned whether I meant Y1 or Y11. Our cylinder diameter is too small to use the Y11 design that would hit on the last plate of the lock body preventing full entry of the key into the cylinder. 10 points for Dicey! I learned more from all of you about this keyway than I thought possible. As for the M1 vs M10, I believe there is a difference but that design was a gift as well and until recently I never questioned it. Is the M10 for a 6 pin maybe? but same keyway?

That said, Gordon, I'm thrilled you like the new design and want as much feedback as possible before we go into full production. Was the new M1 easier or tougher than the current M1? The current design has only 4 security pins and one standard bump pin as you pointed out. Our current pins are hybrid serrated spools. The new design has the deeper cuts and true variations of each type of pin in addition to the custom bump pin. Without adding a full set of serrated key pins, my hope is that the new M1 is more difficult to pick than the existing. Worst case is we add them.

As for the Y1, I'm thrilled with it and agree that with fun bitting this will be a significant improvement over our current cylinder. As you know, our goal is to match or exceed the old 5200 by American Lock and offer a value unmatched by our competitors. We'd like to be considered a great lock at a great price. The stainless springs are intended to add more pressure to a slimline pick. Squids don't fit as well and I'm not a big fan of cats.

The matte finish shackle? Boron alloy with changes to critical dimensions to fit tighter and improve strength against prying...we're talking thousandths of an inch but you can feel the difference between existing and new....and we're not done yet.

New improvements to the lock body will round out the new product. I truly have all of you to thank and look forward to doing so in all of our advertising when we launch this Fall. I blog about it regularly but I don't think anyone reads my posts! The locksport community on LP101, kp.com, lpinternational...all of the individuals who have consulted me personally. I believe Commando has the greatest set of engineers in our worldwide engineering department!

I only received a few cylinders to test before we go into production so my apologies to all. When we receive more, I will generously share them with you in thanks for your great consultation.
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby COMMANDOLOCKUSA » 20 Jul 2013 13:01

One more detail regarding the Y11 vs Y1 keyway--even though we have a custom key, I had to clarify that we can have only one shoulder vs two. This was part of the available differences as well. With only one on the bitting side, the key fits.
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby GWiens2001 » 20 Jul 2013 14:05

@CommandoLock

The M1 blank is 4 pin, the M10 blank is 5 pin. The actual keyway name is something different than either number, but not being a locksmith, I am not sure what it is.

I will grab a couple of your older locks and pick them for comparison of the updated M1 lock cylinder. It has been a while since I last picked the Commando locks and my skills have improved since then. Therefore to make a more accurate evaluation, will pick a couple of them, then get back and post the comparison.

@Evan - Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding of the ILCO key number. :D I still have tons to learn. That is why my signature still has not changed. I appreciate all the knowledge that so many people here share with me.

Gordon
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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby Evan » 20 Jul 2013 15:12

GWiens2001 wrote:@Evan - Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding of the ILCO key number. :D I still have tons to learn. That is why my signature still has not changed. I appreciate all the knowledge that so many people here share with me.

Gordon


It is cool man... It comes from years of making keys and having a key blank directory to refer to...

As far as master locks are concerned, M1 is called #1092 by ilco, K1 (blank) W1 (keyway) by Master... M10 is called #1092N by Ilco and K15 (blank) W15 (keyway) by Master...

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Re: Commando Lock Prototypes

Postby MBI » 20 Jul 2013 20:26

I stand corrected. Thanks everyone who contributed information in this thread. Seems like I learn something new every day here.
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