Brinks 4 pin padlock - tough bitting?

[Murderbydeath]

Hello! I'm relatively new to lock picking, but I quickly grew bored of picking my Master Lock No.3 repeatedly, so I went out and bought a couple of Brinks padlocks. One 5 pin and one 4 pin.

The first thing I did when I got the locks home was try to rake both. To my surprise (and this perhaps speaks to my inexperience), the 5 pin lock raked right open immediately with an S rake, and the 4 pin lock did not. After playing around some, I single pin picked the 5 pin lock without much difficulty, even almost figuring out its binding order (4-5-2?-1?-3? Whenever I pick the 2nd pin, the lock just seems to fall open, it's hard to tell), but the 4 pin lock still eludes me. Sometimes it feels like something is getting in the way of my pick in the keyway, and sometimes the pick glides through, but regardless of that, I can't seem to pick this lock. I have some idea of the first binding pin, but even when it feels like all the pins have been set, the lock won't open. I'm going to guess it has something to do with the bitting, which seems a bit tough for a beginner.

It is perhaps notable that I almost always use a medium hook to pick my way through a lock. I wanted to learn the "right" way the first time, so I've avoided easier methods.

Here's the key of the 5 pin lock, which was easily picked - note the bitting is all pretty close together, which I suppose is why it was so easy to rake (65654):


And here is the key of the 4 pin lock (6145), which continues to confound me:


And finally, here are the locks, with the 5 pin lock on the left and the 4 pin lock on the right:


I've heard that one of the diamond picks (I forget which one) is good for picking locks that have this type of difficult pinning, but I don't remember which diamond, and I don't remember why. I bought the SouthOrd PXS-14 set, so I probably have whichever it is.

[Wizer]

Hi, and wellcome to LP101!
Yes, your 4-pinner has an evil bitting. Maybe thew keyway is too small for your picks.
I guess the half-diamond you ask about is so called Deforest or off-set half diamond. Search for it, its not on your set.
Most pickers perfer hooks for SPP. If a small hook is too shallow for that Brinks, you could file the full hook (biggest curve) down so it will reach high enough and yet is small enough to go in keyway.
Thats the least used pick in most sets, so you do not lose much even if you screw it up while modding it.
And sand your picks so they don´t have rough edges, they will glide better in keyways and pass wardings easier.

[Murderbydeath]

Hi, and wellcome to LP101!
Yes, your 4-pinner has an evil bitting. Maybe thew keyway is too small for your picks.
I guess the half-diamond you ask about is so called Deforest or off-set half diamond. Search for it, its not on your set.
Most pickers perfer hooks for SPP. If a small hook is too shallow for that Brinks, you could file the full hook (biggest curve) down so it will reach high enough and yet is small enough to go in keyway.
Thats the least used pick in most sets, so you do not lose much even if you screw it up while modding it.
And sand your picks so they don´t have rough edges, they will glide better in keyways and pass wardings easier.

Thanks for your quick response and great advice. I kind of suspected it was the bitting that was giving me trouble, likely resetting pins and the like, especially given that I apply bottom of keyway tension which leaves me very little room to work in the keyway in terms of vertical space.

I actually should sand down the edges on my picks, that's a really good idea. I think I'll buy some sandpaper tomorrow.

[Murderbydeath]

Well, after a week of trying, I still haven't opened this lock. I am almost convinced I need a Deforest Half Diamond to be able to do it. What an evil, evil bitting. Does anyone have any advice on what I can use in the PXS-14 kit to attempt to open this lock? I'm tempted to sand down the full hook, but I kind of want to keep it as is. I've been able to open nearly every lock I've come across that I've had permission to pick, and it's frustrating to still be bested by a cheap padlock, haha.

[l0ckcr4ck3r]

Keep on trying... You''ll get it!!!

Use the short Hook from SO kit... looks like this...

[Murderbydeath]

Keep on trying... You''ll get it!!!

Use the short Hook from SO kit... looks like this...

This is the set I have: http://www.lockpickshop.com/PXS-14.html

It has what I think is a medium hook, but no short hook. Or maybe that is a short hook, I don't know; either way, that's what I've been trying with all along

[l0ckcr4ck3r]

It looks like the kit you have has something similar... its the 5th pick in from the left in the photo on SOs website. You could also use the half diamond.
I know we all want to believe its tools NOT the operator when we first start but honestly.... Keep at it, the picks you have will open that lock
Pin 1 is low and is protecting pin 2 to some extent, looking at the key, but nothing that will stop you from picking it with the shorter hook in your set. Im not familiar with that exact lock and so im not sure how tight the keyway is... Im guessing its not too restrictive. Does the pick pass straight through the warding? If so, rest the pick on the bottom of the keyway and push the pick handle down... this causes a pivot to be set up at the face of the lock and will help you lift the pins in a controlled way. play with tension a bit so you can easily figure out binding order. Once you know that just SPP it in the binding order, using the key s a guide. When you are successful, close it up and do it again... and again and again... within 30 mins you'll have picked it another 20 times and you'll wonder what all the problems were!!

Dont give up

[daniel22747]

I have that Brinks lock and I have other padlocks with the same basic bitting.

This Brinks lock usually has a spool pin in there. At some point in the picking you will probably fall into a false set and have to use reverse roation to get out of it and set the spool pin.

If that first low pin is giving you trouble it is probably cause you are over setting it at some point. Over setting a pin can sometimes be fixed by letting off on the tension just a hair. This will sometimes drop the key pin but not the driver. Even if the driver pin falls you can now attempt to reset that pin, and any others that may have fell as well. Over setting a pin does not require you to start all over as some books on lockpicking claim.

I would use two picks to open this lock. Start with a half diamond. Half diamonds are less likely to over set pins. Use a short hook if needed to set any spools pins it you fall into a false set. The half diamond can be important with bottom of the key way tensioning.

Also this lock would probably be best picked with top of the key way tensioning. Take one of your standard tension wrenches and make a very short bend at the base end. You can use this end for top of the keyway work. Eventually you shouod get a Petterson pry bar wrench and a peterson pry bar light (thinner version) for top of the keyway tension work.

[Murderbydeath]

Also this lock would probably be best picked with top of the key way tensioning. Take one of your standard tension wrenches and make a very short bend at the base end. You can use this end for top of the keyway work. Eventually you shouod get a Petterson pry bar wrench and a peterson pry bar light (thinner version) for top of the keyway tension work.

This is an excellent suggestion. Thank you!

[Murderbydeath]

YES! I did it!!!



Finally got this sucker open -- and guess what? I think there IS a spool pin in here! I find that very weird, given that the 5 pin Brinks doesn't have one at all, was marketed as "more secure", and I definitely raked it open/SPP'd it minutes after opening the packaging. Working through this lock was a real challenge; I'd feel the 4th pin set, then the 3rd, but couldn't get anywhere after that. What's more than that is the pins wouldn't want to move at all after being set, so I couldn't push back past them using bottom of keyway tension once they'd been set. Eventually I got the 1st pin to set after the 4th and 3rd, but the 2nd pin was being very odd! I'd press up on it and feel the tension wrench PUSHING AGAINST MY FINGER every time I'd push up on it! This tipped me off that a security pin might be at work here, so I eased up on the tension, pushed the pin quite hard and BAM, the lock fell open! I can't believe such a cheap lock that's marketed as mid level security has a security pin, while its more expensive, 5 pin "bigger brother" has none! Very odd.

[Murderbydeath]

Sorry for the double post, but I should also note that this lock is an example of why top of keyway tension is better -- often times I'd find my tension tools getting caught in the bottom of the warding, effectively giving the lock no tension. I need to fashion some top of keyway tools soon, as picking this lock was even more challenging than it had to be simply because tensioning the bottom of the keyway was very difficult.

[spoonzor]

nice read.

I guess in that price range the difference between "high" and "moderate" security is not about picking. I bet you can close both of them without the key in them (spring locked) and thus they are easily bypassed with a shim (quicker then using the key), Just to say that picking, or even raking them is still the "hard way" to open them. But as practice lock it is nice to have the security pin. Congrats

[daniel22747]

I can't believe such a cheap lock that's marketed as mid level security has a security pin, while its more expensive, 5 pin "bigger brother" has none! Very odd.

Some times it seems like lock companies don't understand what makes a lock more secure. It's like they think that 5th pin makes a huge difference. When in reality a single spool pin is a much better anti-picking feature.

[spoonzor]

well i'd say that the lock manufacturer does understand, but the general public doesn't. And the marketing department will of course focus on the general public.

Making it harder to pick doesn't always make a lock of more secure. Bypassing or cutting it is still easier and more common for thief's than picking a lock. If it pops open when someone slams a hammer on it, it doesn't make much difference if it can only be picked by a master. So maybe the more secure one is made out of (a little) harder material or something like that.

And who knows, maybe that 'security pin' was just a factory fault?

[edge0078]

So i found a gold Brinks padlock in the locked position and just because i was bored i thought id try and see if i could pic it .. i honestly dont see what the big deal is with these ? I got it open in probably less than 3 minutes with 2 paperclips ! Maybe ill purchase a tool kit and start a new hobby lol .
It was too easy , after i opened it i closed it and did it again right away to make sure it wasnt an accident that it opened . I hope thos nice tool kits are not exspensive since i used a simple paper clip .