Open Chubb Manifoil IV Safe - finding combination

[wazouki]

Hello Everyone - I recently purchased a cool little ex-MOD key safe with a Chubb Manifoil Mk IV from 1972 - the safe is open but the Manifoil is locked.. So I have access to the back of the lock. I have been having a dabble and can see the discs moving by shining a torch through the rear hole that is for the change key - I have looked up the opening sequence 5 turns Right / 4 Left / 3 Right /2 to Left to Zero then right to open etc. and have already tried the factory default combination.. There are two screws to open the back cover but an additional couple of small allen key bolts by the bolt - I got a small allen key that fits them but they show no sign of turning - appear to be siezed solid and I'm pretty sure the allen key is going to snap if I try turning it any harder as its bending badly..

So my question is this - can I deduce the likely combination numbers by observing the discs through the key change hole and then off-setting the numbers read off on the dial to position them in the correct place to open the lock.. Don't know if that makes sense..? I am guessing that for instance when I see a hole in a disc through the key hole and the dial reads 70 then it needs to be offset to somewhere like 20 or 10 perhaps to be in the correct position to open the bolt.. Is it possible to work out with a bit of time looking through the change hole or do I definitely need to try and get the back off the lock to find the combination.. Please forgive me if I sound a bit nieve but I am a total beginner at this sort of thing - but have wanted one of these Manifoil locks for quite a few years and would love to be able to use my great little safe.. I am guessing there are guys on the forum with a great deal of experience with the Manifoil..

many thanks

Wazouki

[Squelchtone]

Please post a pic of your safe, this will help us warm up to you. Too many dodgy people come around here asking for help, so as long as we see the open door and your hand pointing at the lock we can help you out.

To upload a photo, go to http://tinypic.com then copy and paste the forum [IMG]tinypic.com/yourphoto.jpg link

Thanks and cant wait to see this little safe,
Squelchtone

[wazouki]

HI Squelch,

Thanks for the warm welcome - here are pics of my little safe.. It is very cool but a bit small.. They were and I still believe are widely used by the UK MOD and Government so there are quite a few surplus ones of this type around here in the UK - I have even seen these small Manifoil safes in vintage library film of Vulcan Bombers where they were fitted to keep the arm codes and mission documents in case war broke out.. I have already whiled away a couple of enjoyable hours in the evenings twiddling the lock whilst holding a torch in my mouth - and you have to hold the sprung flap for the change key open all the time too - the safe itself is actually quite heavy gauge steel.. Anyway here are the photographs - I appreciate you must get a lot of dodgy customers - any help in retrieving the combination would be great.. Hope the link works ok..

regards

Wazouki

[femurat]

You've a very nice little safe there

Look for the change key hole in the last wheel trough the change hole open, while you rotate the dial Left. Look at the number the dial is when you reach it.
Now turn again the dial a complete turn and stop at that number. Open the change key hole and see if the change key hole is exactly there. If so write down that number, it probably is the third number of your combination.

Then you should try to see the second wheel trough the last one... and then the first trough the two back ones. This is a bit more complicated... but it's not that difficult to figure out how.
Hope I gave you a useful hint... Let us know if you need more detailed instruction, sorry I gotta go now.

Cheers

[wazouki]

Hi Femurat,

Thanks i'll have a go using that tonight over a beer - it's kind of what i've already been doing - looking for holes through the key change hole and then trying in various permutations.. So far i've been going for the big holes which i'm now thinking are actually the gaps in the wheels for the bolt release (so not what I need).. but I can also see smaller holes - so I guess these are the ones for the key to locate in and the ones to look for.. I just found a useful and very interesting webpage where the author restores a manifoil and shows its various components and assembly..

regards

W..

http://timwarriner.com/manifoil/page1.html

[femurat]

The square hole in a moving circle is what you're looking for. It's the bottom hole in the last picture in the great page you linked.

I forgot to mention that the number you find this way must be read on the change index, not on the 12 o'clock usual index.
Once you have all three You use them on the opening index.

Cheers

[wazouki]

Hi Femurat, thanks for your guide - well i've just spent a couple of hours tinkering with my Manifoil - firstly I removed the small dust cover for the change key hole as it was annoying having to open the little sprung flap all the time...

I only seem to be able to get one number / hole in what looks to be the disc at the rear of the lock - then it seems whichever way I subsequently turn the dial that same disc rotates.. So I never get to see further than that first hole and look through to the other discs which I guess are rotating.. .. Mmmm - maybe i'm doing something wrong..

I also tried taking the back off the lock - I undid the seal and removed the two main screws but the two small allen / hex screws on either side of the bolt are stuck fast still - I have an allen key that fits but they wont turn.. I think they've just been done up super tight or even loc-tited ...I'm guessing their purpose is to do just that - prevent the back of the lock being removed..

Is there something i'm not doing..? Any ideas..?

many thanks

W..

[femurat]

You're welcome. I should have started my first post by saying it's not an easy job. I suggest you don't disassemble the lock.
First of all go on YouTube and look for an explanation on how a safe combination lock works. Your third wheel, the first from the back, will always move before you can move the other two. This is how it works. So you have to move the second wheel two numbers at a time, move the third wheel change key hole back under the hole in the lock cover, and then you'll be able to see if the second wheel has its change key hole properly aligned. Repeat until you find the second wheel change key hole. When you find it, write down the number you see on the change index at 11 o'clock. This is the second number of your combination.

while looking for the second wheel change key hole, It may be easier to align the big fence grooves of the known wheels, so just the third one for now, since the hole is a lot bigger and it's a lot easier to look through it.

Once you have two combo numbers it may be easier to brute force the first number than to look for it this way.

Good luck

[Squelchtone]

That's quite a nice little safe and safe lock you have there. I especially like the security seal! Would love to add that to my collection. Some safe locks have something called an LOBC (Lock on Back Cover) which requires the bolt to be retracted (in the opened position) before the cover can came off, perhaps something like that is stopping your allen screws from being able to turn.

Depending on where the driver is in that lock (front or back) you may have wheel 3 right by the change key hole, or you may have wheel 1. To find out, turn the dial clockwise about 4 full revolutions, then stop. Now, looking into the change key hole, start turning the dial anti-clockwise, nothing should happen during the first full 360 degree revolution of the dial, but then as you start the second revolution, you should start to see the wheel right in the change key hole start moving. If that is so, this is the 3rd wheel and last number of your combination.

If during the second revolution, that wheel right in the change key hole is not moving, and you have to do another 2 or 3 full revolutions before it starts to turn, then you have a front driver and that wheel you can see is the 1st number of your combination.

I've never seen inside one of your locks, but oh boy, look at this, a youtube video showing the insides.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkQFfzOJVhk

So it's a rear driver and the wheel you see is the last number of the combination. the reason you cannot see the next wheel when you move is as you have already noticed the second you turn the 3rd wheel closest to you, it blocks the view to see any other wheel. You will have to learn how to "pick up" the first wheel by dialing clockwise or anti-clockwise 720 degrees, then pick up the second wheel and park it at let's say 5. Now turn the other direction 1 time fully, then you will pick up the 3rd wheel and turn slowly so you can find the /__\ gate cut out in the wheel, which will allow you to look deeper into the lock at the current state of wheel 2, you may get lucky and see the gate of wheel 2, the change key hole, or solid brass. you will have to repeat this process mapping out wheel 2 by gradually turning it and parking it on 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, 15, etc all the way to 99 until you see the gate, then you have to do some math to figure out how many numbers away the gate is while in the change key hole window, to where it is supposed to be at about 1 oclock in order for the fence to drop into the gate.

Just watch that video, a picture is worth 1000 words. Also, here is a breakdown and rebuild of the lock, it shows you how the parts interact together, which is important when building a mental picture of the wheels while you look with a torch into the change key hole. http://timwarriner.com/manifoil/page2.html

Squelchtone

PS. Once you think you know the combination, the proper dialing order is very important. here's a video for that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85QWUkaTJtw

[MacGyver101]

One thing to try: if it really was last in MOD service, the combination should have been reset to 40-50-60 before it went out the door as surplus.

[C locked]

Having done several fully strip and service on manifold locks. None ex MOD,.with the seal intact. I've always just undone the 2 screws on the back. ...in your photos i cannot see where the allen screws are.

[ratlock]

Ive now 4 of these. All of them came a couple of numbers out when I bought them.(none had been properly re set, or tested)

The default code ( After resetting 5 times anti clockwise) is 40 clockwise 5 times. 50 anti clockwise 4 times. 60 clockwise 3 times. Then either 0, 25, or 75 (depending on bolt up down or sideways) twice anti clock wise, then turn clockwise to open.

Dial in the 40,50,60 then look into the change key hole to see if your close.

You can either read off the number off the change line on the outer ring dial ( at 11 oclock position the straight line, not the one with the arrow) as you see the round change hole on the wheel, through the change key window.

Or if they are close, use a scriber to line them up, then use change key, to reset your own numbers.

There is a "U" shaped plate over the bolt that stops the back plate being removed un less the bolt is retracted. Ive snapped these off with a vise grips once I take the back plate off. The hex screws dont seem to come off easy, if at all.

I have had problems with a lock jumping numbers after its re set, even after checking the combo 5 times. So try dialing a couple of numbers either side of default number.

I think a lot of these locks have been lying around un used, and not maintained since the 80s, and a lot of the faults ive had seem to fix themselfs after oiling, and using.
Good luck with your box, its a great lock.

[simonb12345]

Around 3 years ago I picked a small safe on eBay with a manifoil mark 4 combination lock on it.

It’s been lying around for ages as the combination wasn’t supplied and it was locked.

Having had a play with the safe and looking on this forum I worked out that you could possibly get the combination or part off by drilling a tiny hole in the back of the safe then using a drill bit to poke inside the change key hole.

So tonight finally got round to it. After noticing that the last number was 65 I dialled 45,55,65,0.

Voila the safe opened. And the hole that was drilled in the back of the safe was bang on . Probably around 3mm or 4mm.

Thanks for the tips in the previous posts. Finally got a very useful heavy paperweight