Lock Picking 101 Forum
A community dedicated to the fun and ethical hobby of lock picking.
       

Lock Picking 101 Home
Login
Profile
Members
Forum Rules
Frequent Forum Questions
SEARCH
View New Posts
View Active Topics


Live Chat on Discord
LP101 Forum Chat
Keypicking Forum Chat
Reddit r/lockpicking Chat



Learn How to Pick Locks
FAQs & General Questions
Got Beginner Questions?
Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]


Ask a Locksmith
This Old Lock
This Old Safe
What Lock Should I Buy?



Hardware
Locks
Lock Patents
Lock Picks
Lock Bumping
Lock Impressioning
Lock Pick Guns, Snappers
European Locks & Picks
The Machine Shop
The Open Source Lock
Handcuffs


Member Spotlight
Member Introductions
Member Lock Collections
Member Social Media


Off Topic
General Chatter
Other Puzzles


Locksmith Business Info
Training & Licensing
Running a Business
Keyways & Key Blanks
Key Machines
Master Keyed Systems
Closers and Crash Bars
Life Safety Compliance
Electronic Locks & Access
Locksmith Supplies
Locksmith Lounge


Buy Sell Trade
Buy - Sell - Trade
It came from Ebay!


Advanced Topics
Membership Information
Special Access Required:
High Security Locks
Vending Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room
 

$1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainment

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

$1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainment

Postby jtucek » 30 Mar 2014 14:31

Saw this interesting article, "Analysis of Explosive Magazine Padlock Breaching Techniques", in the Journal of Physical Security: http://jps.anl.gov/Volume7_iss1/Paper%201%20-%20McNeill.pdf

The tl;dr version is that somebody broke into storage magazines for some explosives, and the ATF wanted to know how the locks failed. So they had their research lab run practical tests on a bunch of padlocks (a variety from W-LOK, American, Abloy, and MasterLock). The tests included dremeling the shackle, an oxyacetylene torch on the shackle, drilling with a drill press, freezing and then hitting, and finally "compressive cutting", aka bolt-cutting. They did *not* test picking/manipulation or bypass, just destructive entry.

The results are 1) you shouldn't secure an explosives storage magazine with a $25 Master Lock, 2) W-LOK and Abloy make excellent locks, while some American locks are good and some aren't, 3) destroying thousands of dollars worth of padlocks means the author had a really cool job :)

(edit - can't spell worth a darn.. fixed now?)
jtucek
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 12:06

Re: $1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainme

Postby Paleo123 » 30 Mar 2014 14:50

I don't understand the low temperature chart, it gives results of pass fail but lists different temperatures? wtf kinda experiment changes temps? You can't compare results of an applied experiment with different variables that is ludacris
AC
Paleo123
 
Posts: 125
Joined: 14 Mar 2014 13:36
Location: Charlottetown

Re: $1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainme

Postby jtucek » 30 Mar 2014 14:59

Paleo123 wrote:I don't understand the low temperature chart, it gives results of pass fail but lists different temperatures? wtf kinda experiment changes temps? You can't compare results of an applied experiment with different variables that is ludacris


They cooled the locks in a consistent manner, but didn't get the same temperature for each lock. It may have something to do with the size of the locks (e.g. one can of canned air won't really freeze a massive Abloy PL975 all that much). In the text the author talks about how he wishes he could redo the low temperature attacks with thermocouple attached to the locks, but that these are at least representative of what a real attacker might get.
jtucek
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 12:06

Re: $1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainme

Postby Paleo123 » 30 Mar 2014 15:01

K read some more that guys low temperature experiment was awful...well ya I ugh test them to -25 give or take 15 degrees Celsius lol I want to work at this place I don't care what my title is I just want to work there...
AC
Paleo123
 
Posts: 125
Joined: 14 Mar 2014 13:36
Location: Charlottetown

Re: $1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainme

Postby Squelchtone » 30 Mar 2014 17:11

jtucek wrote:They did *not* test picking/manipulation or bypass, just destructive entry.



Thanks for sharing this..

I have not read the entire thing yet but did they come to a conclusion how the 4 locks in Georgia were breached? I really think they should have considered picking, bumping, or an illicit copy of a working key. Master ProSeries 6xxx are not that hard to pick.

Squelchtone
Image
User avatar
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11307
Joined: 11 May 2006 0:41
Location: right behind you.

Re: $1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainme

Postby cledry » 30 Mar 2014 18:12

I hope nobody paid for this test, especially with my tax money!

Most of those locks can be drilled in a few seconds. I really cannot understand the point in drilling like they did.
Jim
User avatar
cledry
 
Posts: 2836
Joined: 7 Mar 2009 23:29
Location: Orlando

Re: $1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainme

Postby jtucek » 30 Mar 2014 20:51

Squelchtone wrote:I have not read the entire thing yet but did they come to a conclusion how the 4 locks in Georgia were breached?


So we've hit the point of "too long; didn't read all of it"... short answer is that this paper doesn't consider the specific locks in Georgia, but implies that it was probably bolt cutting or freezing.

The longer story is that some while back, the American Powder Company (APC) had four of their storage areas broken into, each of which were secured with two MasterLock 6230's. Being a theft of explosives, there were investigations, filings, reports, etc. Amongst the various things APC did some rather brief experiments about how the 6230's could be destructively bypassed, and (highlights only) concluded that it would take a bit under 3 minutes to dremel through the shackle, about 1 minute to just use a bolt cutter, and about 15 seconds to freeze then shatter the lock. They did some other tests, but they were very perfunctory overall. They concluded that puck-style locks were much better (duh).

The standards for locks security explosives are a bit out of date compared to current best practice (e.g. hidden shackle "puck" locks were only approved in 2011); the ATF wanted to know if APC's experiments were representative/repeatable. So they had one of their employees, Mr. Schonn McNeill, duplicate/extend the experiments.

Mr. McNeill limited himself to things he could repeatably test. Hence he excluded bumping/picking/shimming/etc. since it is hard to repeat (although he acknowledges this shortcoming of his tests). Against exposed shackle locks he tried dremeling, an oxyacetylene torch, and "compression cutting" (aka bolt cutters). Against both exposed shackle and puck-style locks he tried drilling and freezing. His methodology was a compromise between realism, his own knowledge, and repeatability. E.g. the freezing experiments didn't get all of the locks at the same temperature; presumably a real attacker may have similar issues. Also, he wasn't necessarily sophisticated in how he applied the attacks; he didn't know the best places to attack, but again presumably most attackers wouldn't be highly skilled either.

Overall, the cheap exposed-shackle padlocks did pretty poorly. The W-LOK padlock and the Abloy 350-series were the best exposed shackle padlocks, and were very resistant to bolt-cutting, but somewhat vulnerable to dremeling and the torch. They did do better than the other exposed-shackle locks on those attacks for the most part. The puck-locks overall did quite well, but had some issues with drilling (both the MasterLock 6270 and the American A2010 were very vulnerable to drilling; I don't understand how but the Abloy PL975 failed 1 of 5 drilling attempts as well).

The paper concludes that puck locks are generally better than exposed-shackle, and bemoans that there really aren't any good tests for "real-world" security of locks.

Squelchtone wrote:
I really think they should have considered picking, bumping, or an illicit copy of a working key. Master ProSeries 6xxx are not that hard to pick.


Yeah, that is an acknowledge limitation of the study. Unfortunately, picking and bumping do require *some* skill (albeit for many locks not much), so it makes it hard to repeatably test. Honestly, since it only takes 15 seconds to freeze off the lock, a picking test seems overkill.
jtucek
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 12:06

Re: $1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainme

Postby averagejoe » 31 Mar 2014 9:11

Wow, that was a really good read. Thank you for linking it.
User avatar
averagejoe
 
Posts: 488
Joined: 17 Jul 2011 6:12
Location: Canada

Re: $1000's worth of padlocks destroyed for your entertainme

Postby Squelchtone » 31 Mar 2014 10:25

jtucek wrote:
Yeah, that is an acknowledge limitation of the study. Unfortunately, picking and bumping do require *some* skill (albeit for many locks not much), so it makes it hard to repeatably test. Honestly, since it only takes 15 seconds to freeze off the lock, a picking test seems overkill.


While your opinion of picking seems to view it as some sort of game of chance, I believe it to be very repeatable, it honestly doesn't take a locksmith to rake a lock open, or use a Master pro series keyway bump key. The whole freezing thing sounds more like some over elaborate thing you'd see on mythbusters or in a james bond movie. But if one wants to keep things simple, bolt cutters have my vote.. were the 4 locks in Georgia missing after the thefts? why do all the tests instead of just looking at the broken locks laying on the ground? (I'm making some assumptions here)

This is the same issue UL 437 and BHMA 156.3 fail to take into account. They only measure the brute force of some guy with a hammer or bolt cutters, picking seems to be too far fetched for them.

just my opinion,
Squelchtone
Image
User avatar
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11307
Joined: 11 May 2006 0:41
Location: right behind you.


Return to Locks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests