Question with impressioning with the pippin file

[figjeti]

I've been attempting to file with the pippin file for 3 days now. I've broken 2 keys and had no luck really with getting a working key. I'm kind of working at it blind(I'm using a masterlock that has no key, lol because I made bump keys with the keys provided with it).

Anyways to the point, I've tried using both sides of the pippin file and I get better marks when I use the bigger side to file, which side should i be using in general, and when to make my filings? Initially should i use the more V shaped one? when switching from one side to another there are often inconsistencies when trying to widen a cut say if I started with the V and wanted to widen it out with the U side, when looking at it in the magnifying glass its not a pretty site unless i clean it up. Trying to find out what your approach is with the pippin file, when looking at impressioning video's no one is really clear, and jos weyers has a detailed impressioning video but he doesn't use a pippin file.

[billdeserthills]

You almost always use the wider end, when using a pippen file. The narrow end is single cut and not smooth enough to file with, however it is good to establish a place for the wider
side of the file to begin cutting into the key. When you impression a master padlock, it can be easier with a round file, as each cut needs to be a bit wider than the pippen file wide
end cuts. I really prefer using a pippen file when making wafer tumbler keys & I like to use a round file when making pin tumbler keys. If you want to use your pippen file on pin
tumbler keys you'll need to adjust your spacing a bit wider.

[figjeti]

Thanks alot for your reply billdeserthills,

That seems like the general consensus is that people who are selling products say that the #4 pippin file is the absolute go-to for impressioning, but when you start getting into the inner circles and watching videos of people who are experienced at impressioinings, you see more round files being used.

Again, thank you so much for your advice, I now can feel more confident when impressioning. It's funny to me no video i've watched has really touched on which side of the file to be filing with, even more comprehensive ones.

[billdeserthills]

The pippen file is a great file, for instance today I was impressioning a key to some refrigerated compartments and I would have been better
off using a pippen file, as the round file i used opened up the spacing so much that I lost the second cut, inside of the first space, as it
was just too wide. Of course on my second try I began being more careful and I kept my round file in check, so as not to make the spaces
too wide. Crazy thing is all I need of the round file is about the first inch, the rest is so wide it would be un-usable for impressioning keys with

So why do they gotta charge soo much money for just one inch of file?

[figjeti]

Still no luck on the first impression, probably spent a total of about 12 hours attempting, taking a break from it until we get in our new house in a week because i've been doing it in the living room and the gf isn't to fond of the "scratch on the chalkboard" sound haha. Keeping all my broken keys and i'm going to take a picture when i finally succeed. Probably about 10 keys down now. Victory will be bloody sweet. Until then, getting into more high security pins and trying my luck at my first homemade tension wrenches with wiper blades.

[UnlockingBoredom]

I do use a round file sometimes but most times I am using my #4 Pippen file.

Here is the thing with impressioning... If you take off too much material, you can go by the shear line and then the driver pin will bind up behind the key pin and make marks. You will be chasing your tail some times

Since you are just starting out, find a good caliper to measure depths, get a factory cut key to mark out pin position and mark it down the side of the blade with a fine tip sharpie. Then use your file to cut a 0 depth across all 4 (or 5) pin locations before you even stick it in the lock.

Now you can put it into the lock, turn right and jiggle, turn left and jiggle (dont turn too hard or you risk breaking the key) check for pin marks. Now only cut where you see marks and only cut down to the next pin depth and repeat.

Master pin depths:
0 = .275
1 = .260
2 = .245
3 = .230
4 = .215
5 = .200
6 = .185
7 = .170

It really helped me out when I first started impressioning to only cut to the proper pin depths.

I hope this helps, my mind gets fuzzy with the meds so sometimes I make sense only to myself

[figjeti]

Thank you so much for the post,

So any of the 4 pins can be at any of those measurements at any given time is that what i'm reading? Will definitely do that, I thought i got really close today(couldnt resist i had to pull it out and give it a try) didn't break the key but I think i overset one of the pins(closest to the shoulder).

[Squelchtone]

Thank you so much for the post,

So any of the 4 pins can be at any of those measurements at any given time is that what i'm reading? Will definitely do that, I thought i got really close today(couldnt resist i had to pull it out and give it a try) didn't break the key but I think i overset one of the pins(closest to the shoulder).

Take a look at page 9 of this PDF and look at Master Standard Large Pin chart , it's the info from above, but maybe will help click better.

Theoretically yes, it could be any of those numbers, but in practice, there is a limit of the distance between pins, you can't have the shortest pin next to the longest one, or it causes issues with the lock working smoothly. This limit is called MACS (Maximum Adjacent Cut Specification) and is different from lock manufacturer to lock manufacturer.

Squelchtone

[figjeti]

Thank you so much for the post,

So any of the 4 pins can be at any of those measurements at any given time is that what i'm reading? Will definitely do that, I thought i got really close today(couldnt resist i had to pull it out and give it a try) didn't break the key but I think i overset one of the pins(closest to the shoulder).

Take a look at page 9 of this PDF and look at Master Standard Large Pin chart , it's the info from above, but maybe will help click better.

Theoretically yes, it could be any of those numbers, but in practice, there is a limit of the distance between pins, you can't have the shortest pin next to the longest one, or it causes issues with the lock working smoothly. This limit is called MACS (Maximum Adjacent Cut Specification) and is different from lock manufacturer to lock manufacturer.

Squelchtone

Hey Squelch, I didn't see the PDF that you provided, I'm fairly new so I could be just missing something. About the macs, I've heard that before but didn't know where to go to get any information on it, I thought it was ironic that High-Low is really hard to pic yet manufacturers have specifications against it, do you know why that is?

[Squelchtone]

Thank you so much for the post,

So any of the 4 pins can be at any of those measurements at any given time is that what i'm reading? Will definitely do that, I thought i got really close today(couldnt resist i had to pull it out and give it a try) didn't break the key but I think i overset one of the pins(closest to the shoulder).

Take a look at page 9 of this PDF and look at Master Standard Large Pin chart , it's the info from above, but maybe will help click better.

Theoretically yes, it could be any of those numbers, but in practice, there is a limit of the distance between pins, you can't have the shortest pin next to the longest one, or it causes issues with the lock working smoothly. This limit is called MACS (Maximum Adjacent Cut Specification) and is different from lock manufacturer to lock manufacturer.

Squelchtone

Hey Squelch, I didn't see the PDF that you provided, I'm fairly new so I could be just missing something. About the macs, I've heard that before but didn't know where to go to get any information on it, I thought it was ironic that High-Low is really hard to pic yet manufacturers have specifications against it, do you know why that is?

oops here's the file: http://www.locksmithschool4u.com/downlo ... 0Space.pdf

you can still have hi-lo, but a size 1 cut next to a size 9 cut is too extreme and getting the key in and out of the lock smoothly can be tricky. if you have like 2 cut and then a 6 cut, that's still lo-hi but the key can handle it much better going in and out of the lock.

I think zeke79 sent me a Schlage once pinned up 91919 or something rediculous like that and it was a chore to pick it, not sure I actually ever got a successful pick.

Squelchtone

[tomasfuk]

...manufacturers have specifications against it, do you know why that is?

The MACS follows from the cut/pin top geometry and spacing. If you wish to make more aggressive pinning, you must use a cutter with a sharper V angle (e.g. 80º instead of 90º) what causes a difficult key inserting then.

[figjeti]

Thank you so much for that valuable resource Squelch, is there a caliper that you would recommend? I saw some at harbor freights but i didn't want to buy one before knowing which kind to get.

I didn't consider the trouble a key would have inserting due to pinning, so i guess while it would make a fun challenge lock, it would be impractical for daily purposes

[Squelchtone]

Thank you so much for that valuable resource Squelch, is there a caliper that you would recommend? I saw some at harbor freights but i didn't want to buy one before knowing which kind to get.

I didn't consider the trouble a key would have inserting due to pinning, so i guess while it would make a fun challenge lock, it would be impractical for daily purposes

You shouldn't need to actually use a caliper for this. Just impression until you don't see the little black dot on the key cut and keep going on the different pin stacks until the lock opens. over time you'll learn what a half depth or full depth cut looks like and how many strokes of the file it takes to make those cuts. I think some folks use a space and depth key set to compare how deep they've filed. you can get a space and depth key set for master on ebay: www.ebay.com/itm/261948075590

Squelchtone

[figjeti]

Awesome,

Definitely have some food for thought now, I will probably go and buy another masterlock that has a key so I can use the key for reference and for a confidence boost to know I'm doing it right, It will also allow me to mark the proper spacing. Without having a key to look at and tell whether or not I'm on the right track I think is making me question myself overall.