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Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Forgot how to dial the combination on that old safe? Think you got the right numbers but the handle is stuck? What safe should you buy? Ask your safe questions here!
Forum rules
You are posting this in This Old Safe, a public area of the forum.

Safe manipulation discussion is allowed, but safe drilling or other destructive entry is only allowed in the Advanced - Safes and Safe Locks area.

If you are a guest of the forum and have a safe you need to open, but you do not have the combination, we cannot tell you how or where to drill it.

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby 00247 » 25 May 2016 19:23

Yes silica can be hazardous but no more than the rust and lead based paints that are on old safes. Blasting is not a health conscience activity. A top quality respirator is key.

You are probably thinking about Eamonn Keogh, the master of engine turning. He is the one who put the finish on the new nickel plating on my Victor cannonball. I searched here in the Midwest and could not find anyone capable to do a piece of this size. I would have loved to have built a jig and attempted it myself but it cost so much to get the pieces plated that a screw up would be pricey. Some battles are not worth fighting so I shipped the pieces out to Eamonn and they were done perfectly to my specification. Money well spent. Check out his web site. I am proud to say my Victor is on his site.

http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~eamonn/et/et.htm

Here is the Victor project. While not as bad as yours, I totally understand what you are going through!

http://keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?t=10228
You call that a safe? Let me show you a real safe...
00247
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 15 May 2016 21:24
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby djed » 31 May 2016 18:12

Dial plate after being sanded, and sanded, and sanded, and polished (hopefully ready for plating).

https://imgur.com/yRNzxeL
https://imgur.com/mLOUtOc
https://imgur.com/BZS003r

There are some imperfections and I don't think it's smooth enough for turning. Also keep in mind that the hexagonal retaining screws will cover the four small holes and the dial plate will cover the center hole.

The side is still pitted and I don't want to take off too much there so I may live with that. I'll line it up on the safe and may seek out a machine shop with a lathe to smooth it out if I don't compromise the plate by reducing the diameter.

Thanks in advance for any helpful comments you might have.
djed
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 17:32

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby 00247 » 31 May 2016 22:07

The flat surface looks pretty good. If you can take a picture at a shallow angle with light reflecting off the surface the imperfections will show up better. A good way to check the level of the surface is to wet it with a slow drying solvent, and look at at the shallow angle at something that has straight lines in it. Any waves in the surface will distort the straight lines in the reflection. I use this practice when block sanding body panels (safes included) to make sure they are straight. You can also spray a light coat of primer as a guide coat and block sand it to reveal highs and lows. Plating is no different than paint, it is only as good as what is under it. The reflection of anything should look like the original if it is flat. Here is a freshly blocked and buffed Corvette roof that reflects like a wet surface. The only distortion is caused by the curves in the roof.

Image


Minor pitting will be filled with the initial copper coat and then will be buffed out. To get really anal, even with a perfectly flat surface, the copper layer can have waves buffed into it by an aggressive handler. Not enough to bother engine turning but if one is pursuing a perfect finish it matters. Larger pits can be troublesome for the plater and will be dependent on his skills as contamination can linger there and cause pits in the plating process. The more level the surface is the better it is for the engine turning process. Minor waves will be hidden by the design but if they are to drastic they could cause a burn through to the copper layer underneath. Also once your bolts and dial are in place it becomes a whole package and will disguise imperfections nicely. As for the edge, it looks like there is a nick in one or more spots. That can be welded and then have the edge trued. Again, an easy process and hopefully a slight loss of diameter won't mater. I don't think it will as your bolts are far enough away from the edge. The edge of the rear door plate on my Victor was beat up pretty bad from spinning the door when it was not aligned properly so it was welded in several areas. It is perfect now. Remember, any flaw will be enhanced when new plating is done.

How far does one take it? That is up to you. Whether I look at Matt's safe restorations, a restored muscle car, or a new Corvette, after a quick general look to enjoy the overall effect I scrutinize the reflections to realize the truth. Matt is excelent. GM, not so much. :lol:
You call that a safe? Let me show you a real safe...
00247
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 15 May 2016 21:24
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby djed » 31 May 2016 22:49

Thank you. Your advice is appreciated. Your analysis of my work quality, however, is overly kind.

I have very little experience with body work so this is a learning process for me. I spent two hours on just that 9.5" round plate and it still is not where I want it. I'm sure part of the problem is my tools but I don't even know what I would need to buy. I guess I'll spend some time on YouTube.

I'll try your suggestions and see if I can make some improvements to what I have.

As far as welding goes, I'm a little gun shy since I put a slight warp into the back panel with my oxy-acetylene torch. Perhaps my wire feed welder to fill the pits is a better idea. However, there is a ton of pitting and I may be at that for a while if I need to fill all the pits. It would be great if I could shave off 1/8". I'll mount the plate and line it up and see how it goes.
djed
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 17:32

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby 00247 » 1 Jun 2016 7:52

Yes, a torch will put way to much heat into the metal. I wouldn't try welding pits, only a gouge or a nick on the edge. It would be easiest to surface grind the plate. A machine shop could do it or check at a auto parts shop that rebuilds engines. They surface grind heads and blocks all the time and are usually reasonable. Or network the local hot rod guys, they will know where to go or who has a machine shop in their garage. A wanted ad on Craigslist works well to find services too.

If you are using a local plater, check with him to see what he can work with. It may be cost effective to let him prepare it. At least you will know how far you need to go with it. Body work and paint is a whole different animal. The hunt, learning new things, and the relationships along the way are the fun part. That's why I get bored with projects once they are done.
You call that a safe? Let me show you a real safe...
00247
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 15 May 2016 21:24
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby djed » 1 Jun 2016 22:52

Just measured and the dual plate diameter is 9.5" but the retaining ring is 9"

https://imgur.com/ZuHfxdb
https://imgur.com/15Fcw7Z

Not much room to trim the dial plate. If I take 1/8" off, I'm left with a 9.25" plate - a bit too close for my comfort. I'll have to explore welding the nicks/gouges as was suggested.

Some additional pictures for posterity:

https://imgur.com/yjnm6ic
https://imgur.com/m7MvOBF
https://imgur.com/ixwY6Kl
https://imgur.com/9em1hos
djed
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 17:32

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby djed » 1 Jun 2016 23:47

Anyone out there know how to take the sleeve off the crank?

See the left crank on the white towel in the attached picture.

https://imgur.com/JBGc7KO

My guess is that it's pressed on and also secured by two pins (one of which is missing on mine and the of which I can't get out). I'm thinking about breaking off the one pin and then drilling that out.

Oddly, there is a screw on the cap side of the crank but it doesn't seem to be holding anything in place.

I need to clean up the crank and get it ready for plating but cannot do so while it is assembled.

Thank you.
djed
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 17:32

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby 74TR6 » 2 Jun 2016 0:36

For the edge of the plate, a cut of .030" to .040" may improve the edge more than expected. A .040" cut will reduce the dia by .080". Unless the photo presents an angle on the tape showing the measurements; you are less than 9" on the ring and have metal to true the edge of plate.

An automotive machine shop may be able to surface or polish the plate
74TR6
 
Posts: 104
Joined: 28 Oct 2014 23:24
Location: Arkansas

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby 00247 » 2 Jun 2016 6:47

Your cranks are different than my screw door cranks. They have the bent shape of the standard screw door but have a similar shaft assembly to the double screw door. The double screw door crank also has a ratcheting device which is clever.

Image

Here is a link to a poor quality video of the ratcheting crank from the double screw door that you may enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPfpQ2BT2LM

This crank is put together with slot headed bolts.

Image

Image

I agree with 74TR6, a light cut will do wonders to that edge. Consult the plater on what he can deal with for pits.

Added: Before you drill make sure it isn't a bolt with the head missing. Or drill carefully in case one end is threaded in order to save the threads.
You call that a safe? Let me show you a real safe...
00247
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 15 May 2016 21:24
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby djed » 2 Jun 2016 9:58

Neither of the two I have exhibit any ratcheting behavior. However, they could be rusted internally.

These are also not necessarily native to the safe. I just don't know.
djed
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 17:32

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby djed » 2 Jun 2016 10:48

Some pictures after spending the night in a CLR bath.

https://imgur.com/SR7uA4y
https://imgur.com/wl4XKLv
https://imgur.com/t9rPiGB

You should have seen how much dirt came out when I shook it off.

It's now sitting in a bath of PB Blaster.

David
djed
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 17:32

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby 74TR6 » 2 Jun 2016 23:13

looking at the picture of the handle and pin holding sleeve. That pin may be a taper pin; and it will only come out one direction. This may be reason for your difficulty removing it. If the dia is only .003 or .004" smaller on one end, you are fighting a taper pin. Press or punch from small end; and it may still be more difficult than a straight pin

The debate may have been discussed earlier, but try Kroil rather than PB.
74TR6
 
Posts: 104
Joined: 28 Oct 2014 23:24
Location: Arkansas

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby djed » 3 Jun 2016 0:07

OK now - this is the second time in less than 24 hours that someone used the word taper pin.

In general, I would assume a taper pin is narrower/wider on one end than the other.

However, so I can better understand its application with this crank, please clarify.

Am I safe to assume that the pin on the inside is wider than the hole it's coming through? Does it perhaps have a head on the inside? (I'm guessing yes given my inability to remove it after many hours of fighting with it).

Is the only way to get the sleeve off to remove the pin? (this may be hard to answer unless you have experience with this application).

To remove the pin, should I simply cut off as much as I can and drill the rest?

Thanks again for your help.
djed
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 17:32

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby djed » 3 Jun 2016 0:11

Since I'm getting all my metal ready for the plater, I am going to introduce yet another question.

How do I get the nut off the back of the dial?

https://imgur.com/qjQzGiE
https://imgur.com/iUlDh9M

It looks like it's been staked but the bigger problem is what do I grab onto when I put my socket on the 1 1/4" nut?

I think this may be an easy question for some of you safe gurus.
djed
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 17:32

Re: Mosler Cannonball Safe (Parts Missing)

Postby 00247 » 3 Jun 2016 8:42

All this crank talk peaked my curiosity so I dissembled my ratcheting crank, It needs to get to the plater anyway so thanks for the motivation. While yours does not ratchet, the way the shaft assembly is fitted to the crank handle is similar. My shaft assembly has a machined collar on the outer end and slides into the handle and is retained by a collar like yours. The collar has a slotted 1/4" countersunk oval head bolt. It slides most of the way through the shaft but then is threaded in the shaft as well as the other side of the collar. The bolt is partially sheared.

The tapered pin suggestion is viable as the knob on the ratchet assembly was held by a tapered pin. The pin is just over 3/4" long and has a .005 taper per side or .010 overall, measuring .180 on the small end and .190 on the big. It took some persuasion to coax it out. The pin is quite hard as the the punch did not mare the end of the pin. If you drill use a high quality bit.

By the looks of the picture it looks like the pin may not go into the other side of the collar? If it won't budge you could drill just enough to get the collar off instead of drilling all the way through, then deal with the shaft separately. The front plate seems to be held on with the screw, will it come out? If that plate comes off then you could get the shaft out to make it easier to work with and get it in a drill press. Some heat to the shaft may get the pin to release.

Much like the safes themselves, the parts of this crank are numbered as a set, #12. As far as I can tell the ratchet crank is exclusive to this double door screw door safe.

Image

Interestingly, the hole for the for the pin is drilled off center by quite a bit. Not consistent with the quality of workmanship in the rest of the safe.

Image
You call that a safe? Let me show you a real safe...
00247
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 15 May 2016 21:24
Location: Wisconsin

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