Trying to understand sfic...

[hatrabbit]

As I understand it, the order of the pins in a 4 pin sfic A2 stack are: bottom pin, master pin, build-up pin, and top pin. My question is, if I cut a key that puts the master pins at the shear line in all chambers across the lock, will that likely be a master key for that system? Sounds logical to me, but I'm still a beginner with these locks.

Thanks

[jimu57]

Master pins above or below the shear line? I believe you can define a master from any combinations of the master pin above or below. 6 pins like that with a master pin in each, I think gives you 36 possible combinations. Any of those could be defined as the master. But I am new to master systems myself.

[Robotnik]

If I'm reading you correctly, you're trying to decode a system master key from a single core with one master wafer in every chamber?

The short answer is that you don't have enough info to do so. As Jim points out, you're effectively left with two possibilities per chamber; for the four pin core you're talking about, you would have to cut 16 different keys to be assured of having the master.

If, on the other hand, you have an operating key for the core you're dealing with, or multiple cores from the system, you could decode the master fairly easily.

[hatrabbit]

That's good info, thanks. I'm starting to comprehend sfic.

[GWiens2001]

This will help answer many questions on SFIC.

http://www.crypto.com/photos/misc/sfic/

Gordon

[hatrabbit]

I saw a post from years ago where someone had a spreadsheet that used formulas to simplify converting pin measurements into code numbers, and determining such things as control key, etc. Does this sound familiar, and if so where can I get it?

Thanks

[GWiens2001]

I saw a post from years ago where someone had a spreadsheet that used formulas to simplify converting pin measurements into code numbers, and determining such things as control key, etc. Does this sound familiar, and if so where can I get it?

Thanks

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=SFIC+Pinning&l=1

First link. We even have a "SEARCH" button. A couple of them, in fact!

Gordon

[tpark]

As I understand it, the order of the pins in a 4 pin sfic A2 stack are: bottom pin, master pin, build-up pin, and top pin. My question is, if I cut a key that puts the master pins at the shear line in all chambers across the lock, will that likely be a master key for that system? Sounds logical to me, but I'm still a beginner with these locks.

Thanks

Usually it's not so simple - the systems I've seen usually have the master set up so that it has some low cuts and some high cuts. It's possible to combinate locks in the manner you describe, but it's likely that using all of the highest (or all of the lowest) cuts will yield a master key.

As Robotnik mentioned, it's possible to find the other key if you have a change key for your core, or multiple cores from the same system. If the core was heavily used, you may be able to determine which shear lines were most heavily used by the wear on the pins. I've decoded cores, but mostly to get the control key so I could get the cores out and reuse the rest of the assembly.

[hatrabbit]

GWiens2001, could you do one of those searches that finds a spreadsheet that used formulas to simplify converting pin measurements into code numbers, and determining such things as control key, etc? Like, the reverse of the ones in the online pinning programs?

Thanks

[Robotnik]

Pin size/code number is easy enough - PDF linked below. It's not interactive, but if you're trying to decode a core, this info and a caliper is all you need.

http://media.cygnus.com/files/base/LL/document/2012/04/icchart_10706797.pdf

If you understand the mechanics of an IC - and the link Gordon provided illustrates them very well - determining a control key, operating key, etc, is no problem.

[GWiens2001]

GWiens2001, could you do one of those searches that finds a spreadsheet that used formulas to simplify converting pin measurements into code numbers, and determining such things as control key, etc? Like, the reverse of the ones in the online pinning programs?

Thanks

I bet you could do it, since it is you who wants that information. I have confidence in you!

Gordon

[mseifert]

Ok, After purchases a couple BEST lock from EBay I am heading down this path also.. So just so I clear on this .. I am simplifying this of course..

Pick the Locks to Control.. Remove core and disassemble ..
Measure the pins..
Match up on chart for cut code .. And have 2 keys cut .. 1 Control & 1 Operate ...

Question is .. How likely if I walk into my local smithy shop and say "Hey will you code cut these keys for me" are they to cut the keys without some kind of "What are you up too" look..

[jeffmoss26]

Most likely depends on the locksmith, if they know you, what mood they are in that day, etc.
If you have the lock with you, it probably won't be an issue.

[tpark]

Ok, After purchases a couple BEST lock from EBay I am heading down this path also.. So just so I clear on this .. I am simplifying this of course..

Pick the Locks to Control.. Remove core and disassemble ..
Measure the pins..
Match up on chart for cut code .. And have 2 keys cut .. 1 Control & 1 Operate ...

Question is .. How likely if I walk into my local smithy shop and say "Hey will you code cut these keys for me" are they to cut the keys without some kind of "What are you up too" look..

Be sure that you have the cut order correct - BEST codes are cut from the tip, so make sure you specify the cuts starting from the tip. The old style BEST cores have a retainer riveted on, so it can't be disassembled by removing the plug. To get the pins out, there's a special tool that is used to punch the pin stacks out into a decoding block (keeps the pins in order). When reassembling the core, the springs and caps are replaced by new ones. A special capping block is used to set the caps in place. It's probably possible to disassemble and disassemble new style BEST locks without uncapping but it would be some work to get it reassembled.

If you don't have the decoding tool, you might be able to get the caps off with a small drill and a small screwdriver (drill a hole in the cap, place the screwdriver in the hole, then gently pry the cap out) and then use a paper clip to push the stack out. I've never tried to install caps without a capping tool, but it may be possible.

Best SFIC is easy to work with but you need to have the right tools.

[djhobbes]

Best blanks are also readily available on eBay and other online sources and are relatively inexpensive.

If you are truly interested in experimenting with Best SFICs, another route you could explore is buying a punch and making your own keys.