Cisa Astral S problem

[dcdolf]

So i've just gotten into the world of locks and keys
I've bought myself a CISA Astral S and right away i've noticed something that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The same code that is printed on the key card, is engraved on the key itself.

So let's say I'm somewhere and I put my keys on a table, someone can make a note of the code (it's not incredibly long) and order keys to my house off the internet? They're £10 tops when you supply the code. Is it really that easy or am I missing something here?

[Jacob Morgan]

Can't speak for that particular lock, but in the US some keys have even direct codes stamped on them from the factory as well.

If you are worried about someone seeing the code on a key, then could you have a locksmith duplicate the key on a clean blank? Maybe with a neuter bow (a key that does not look a key from the lock brand in question) if one is available for that lock?

[billdeserthills]

That sounds right to me, in addition, anyone trained can make an educated guess
about the depth of cuts on your key and likewise have a copy made (or make one themselves)

For this reason companies make a little key cover, to hide your key bitting

You didn't say how these clever folks were gonna figure out your address, so I'll 'address'
that as well--I have, in the past hired a private detective to get me someone's info from
their address, name or license plate from their car, but in your case it would be cheaper to just
pick open your lock, after you leave your home

[dcdolf]

That sounds right to me, in addition, anyone trained can make an educated guess
about the depth of cuts on your key and likewise have a copy made (or make one themselves)

For this reason companies make a little key cover, to hide your key bitting

You didn't say how these clever folks were gonna figure out your address, so I'll 'address'
that as well--I have, in the past hired a private detective to get me someone's info from
their address, name or license plate from their car, but in your case it would be cheaper to just
pick open your lock, after you leave your home

Thanks for your reply.

I think you've misunderstood the situation here. We're not in some Bond film, where we have access to all manners of sophisticated machinery which can do many kinds of trickery. Here i'm just thinking of the possible scenario where, for example, I leave the keys on my work desk and a rogue employee would know where I live and so on, and takes that course of action. Maybe i'm just too paranoid, but it seems as if it's too obvious for a fancy cylinder to have that kind of flaw, whereas normal keys wouldn't be coded altogether thus resolving the issue.

[Silverado]

[/quote]Thanks for your reply. I think you've misunderstood the situation here. We're not in some Bond film, where we have access to all manners of sophisticated machinery which can do many kinds of trickery. Here i'm just thinking of the possible scenario where, for example, I leave the keys on my work desk and a rogue employee would know where I live and so on, and takes that course of action. Maybe i'm just too paranoid, but it seems as if it's too obvious for a fancy cylinder to have that kind of flaw, whereas normal keys wouldn't be coded altogether thus resolving the issue.[/quote]

That is not what Bill is saying. Anyone with a little "Google-fu" and some free time can figure out the depth of the cuts in your key without actually seeing the numbers stamped in the key bow. A key cutting machine is neither particularly sophisticated, nor is it even required to cut a key and a needle file can be used to cut the bitting.
I think the best answer here is that if you are overly concerned that someone is going to pick up your keys, while you are not around, and get that number to obtain an extra key to your home you should probably not leave your keys lying around. Nobody can see the numbers if your keys are in your pocket.

[Squelchtone]

Don't most locksmiths require the physical card as proof of ownership? I cant speak to what an online locksmith would do. Try to make copies of your new key online at a different shop than you bought it and see if they will do it. Dont mention having the card.

Also, grind the code off the keys if its a security concern.

[nite0wl]

Or a bit of house paint to obscure the code if you are particularly concerned.
Also, depending on the key/lock/brand in question that code is often not a direct representation of the bitting but is a "blind code" that references a manufacturer's code book which (usually) is difficult to get a hold of if you aren't a locksmith (and usually requires having some sort of distribution deal with the specific manufacturer).
Sometimes the code stamped on the card is actually a direct bitting code (Angal's copy of the Mul-T-Lock Classic and Mul-T-Lock's Junior for instance has such a card, as decoding dimple locks is not easily done without specialized tools) the only way to be sure is to familiarize yourself with the keying system and comparing the code to the pinning notation.

Examples (using keys and authorization cards on my desk for code formats) substituting X for letters and 0 for numbers:
Direct Codes:
Kwikset 5-pin- 00000 (direct keypin numbers read from shoulder to tip)
Schlage 6-pin- 000000 (direct keypin numbers read from shoulder to tip)
Angal/MTL Classic/Junior- 00 XXXXX 00000 [or] 000 XXXXX 00000 (Blank keyway ID number, outer keypins, inner keypins)

Blind/Lookup Codes:
Master Lock 4 pin padlock: X000
American Lock tubular lock: 00000
Medeco Original: X 0000000
Medeco Original IC Control Key: CX 0000000
Medeco Biaxial: X0X 0000XXX
Evva MCS: 0000-0000-0000
Abus 888 Restricted: XX00000
Abus Vitesse 1000: X0000000 (a bunch of stuff IDing distributor/retailer) X00XX

Notice that even the generally unrestricted keys such as Master Lock and American Lock use blind codes, at least for some of their keys even though their keys can be easily visually decoded and can be ordered by code with little to no verification online. Understanding the notation system for the different manufacturers and systems should give you a good idea of the level difficulty (and risk) of unauthorized duplication by code is. Of course for most inline pin tumbler keys visual decoding of the cuts is fairly trivial at this point even without access to manufacturer's codebooks, buying locks with restricted keyways is often the best protection against rogue key duplication, especially if they are of a design that defies easy visual decoding such as pin-in-pin dimple locks or medium to high security locks which incorporate some secondary locking feature (Medeco's angled cuts for pin rotation is tricky without close inspection, EVVA MCS' magnetic inserts require physical access to apply magnetic sensitive materials or tools to read the magnetic components).

The best advice of all though is to keep your keys in your pocket at all times except when you are actively using them.

[mhole]

To expand on niteowls posts, all mul-t-lock cards carry the direct key cuts, at least upto and including interactive. They have switched to a blind code after this.

[mhole]

Sorry, typo - they *may* have switched to an indirect code.