Locks and mechanisms on Gunsafes

[gumptrick]

I'm planning on picking up a proper safe since I've outgrown my cheapo sheet metal gunsafe. The main application will be securing firearms, but I will also have some important documents & other valuables inside as well. I've been doing a lot of research on the subject and I've learned a great deal about the thin metal that appears in an awful lot of safes so I already know to watch out for that. What I've been finding less information about is the locking mechanisms themselves.

Some resources, including my local locksmith, were recommending electronic locks. I understand that they're fast and easy to use, and that's a good thing. If a safe is a hassle to access then it's easy to get lazy and leave things out of the safe rather than putting valuables back in it every time you're done using them. However, my concern is that suppose it's an emergency and I need to get into that safe ASAP. If the batteries on an electronic lock happen to be dead, then what? When I posed that question to my locksmith they explained how it was easily possible to change batteries by popping the flimsy plastic cover off the electronic lock, but what if one doesn't have a set of spare batteries around and you need to get into that safe NOW? I'd rather not have to adopt the hassle of not only making sure the batteries in the lock are OK, but that I always have a spare set on hand and those don't get pilfered for some other purpose.

I have come across safes that have both an electronic lock and a mechanical lock. The idea is that you would use the electronic keypad for everyday use and the mechanical dial remains as a backup in case the electric lock fails or has no power. That seems like a great idea to me, but those designs don't seem very common.

I'm curious what those more experienced than I have to say on this matter.

[demux]

You can get an electronic lock that has no batteries and uses an internal generator powered by an exterior dial to generate the power needed for the lock.

An example is this model from Kaba-Mas:
http://www.kaba-mas.com/kaba-brand/prod ... 2-t52.html

[74TR6]

You will likely get a number of replies giving pro and con of each style lock. My observation: The number one call I get concerning gun safes is an e-lock that no longer works. New batteries--nothing; owner's code--nothing; factory code--nothing. I have a good selection of S&G locks (dial type and all the colors to match owners safe) on the shelf; not a single e-lock

Read the warranty; one company clearly states that if the e-lock fails, they will replace it. They will send a lock, new in the box at no expense; but the owner is responsible for expense of a safe tech to open safe and install new lock . I have dealt with this twice and the owner was not pleased

I will not say there are not good e-locks; but I have not found them on gun safes. Just my 2 cents

[gumptrick]

You will likely get a number of replies giving pro and con of each style lock.

Yes, that's exactly what I found! And just as you mentioned there are certainly some reliability concerns about the electronic locks. One resource I found had some very powerful things to say: Consumer grade electronic keypads are a relatively new invention but mechanical combination locks have been in use for over 150 years. There is no question which is the more mature, reliable, technology. And another big one: Industry standard combination locks are warranted for decades, if not forever. Yet you'd be lucky to find an electronic one warranted for more than 5 years, if you even find that.

Also, its seems that the "redundant" style of lock with both an electric and mechanical mechanism are not truly what they seem to be at first glance. Rather than two totally separate locking mechanisms it's really just a special lock body that contains both electronics and a combination dial. The dial mounts like any other mechanical lock and the keypad is free to mount anywhere via its cable. That means that it would be easy to retrofit such a lock to any relatively modern safe by swapping out the factory lock for one of those if I decided to go that route. So it doesn't really matter if a safe maker I like doesn't offer that option, or if I find a good used safe--If I want a dual function lock it is easily installed.

[cledry]

There are dual function safes that have an emergency key override of the combination lock. They work well. My preference for electronic locks is AMSEC ESL locks, I cannot recall replacing even a single one but I have had many failures on S&G and LaGard electronic locks.

Electronic locks such as the Kaba X10 are certainly more secure than combination locks but they also cost a great deal. The only gun safe I have seen them on are gun rooms for the military.

[MartinHewitt]

I have been recommended the M-Locks electronic locks by a professional safe opener. He told me that he has only seen faulty pin pads which could be replaced with the safe closed. This guy is very careful regarding faults, even so they provide him business. His recommendation for mechanical combination locks are Group 2 locks, because they have less defects than the more complex Group 2M.

[Ralph_Goodman]

Some resources, including my local locksmith, were recommending electronic locks. I understand that they're fast and easy to use, and that's a good thing. If a safe is a hassle to access then it's easy to get lazy and leave things out of the safe rather than putting valuables back in it every time you're done using them. However, my concern is that suppose it's an emergency and I need to get into that safe ASAP. If the batteries on an electronic lock happen to be dead, then what?

More likely than your batteries conveniently running out in your hypothetical emergency, the time it is going to take to open a dial combination or find and use your key is going to take significantly more time than using an electronic lock.

The other thing you have to think about is lighting. Digital keypads often illuminate when you touch them if you wear glasses the numbers being larger and easy to read might be a factor. (If you can't see your safe well enough in the dark, this is a problem with emergency access).

My advice if you are looking for quick access to a firearm would be to not use a safe at all. Have the weapon concealed in one of the behind-the-mirror cabinets or semi-hollow shelves. There are also personal protection boxes that are a lot like lockboxes, but they are made to open even faster than a digital combination lock.

That is only if your primary concern is access during emergencies.

[WilsonTrucking]

I was going to ask this in a seperate thread but it's close to this topic. Is there a gun safe out there that requires dual combinations? I have a situation where I need to control access by having 2 people to open the safe but it can not be keyed access. Biometrics would be the best option here but even just dual dials which both have to be set to open the safe would work. Been searching online to no avail. Under $3000 preferably.

[Squelchtone]

I was going to ask this in a seperate thread but it's close to this topic. Is there a gun safe out there that requires dual combinations? I have a situation where I need to control access by having 2 people to open the safe but it can not be keyed access. Biometrics would be the best option here but even just dual dials which both have to be set to open the safe would work. Been searching online to no avail. Under $3000 preferably.

http://www.westcoastsafes.com/fort-knox ... 00233.html

[billdeserthills]

You can get an electronic lock that has no batteries and uses an internal generator powered by an exterior dial to generate the power needed for the lock.

An example is this model from Kaba-Mas:
http://www.kaba-mas.com/kaba-brand/prod ... 2-t52.html

I have one on one of my safes, I just got to see it after being in storage (pods) for 4 years--
I was afraid it would be dead by now, but after 3-4 turns it powered right up again


I recently saw a few NOS X0-7 combo locks on e-bay, like $100 apiece

[demux]

My advice if you are looking for quick access to a firearm would be to not use a safe at all. Have the weapon concealed in one of the behind-the-mirror cabinets or semi-hollow shelves. There are also personal protection boxes that are a lot like lockboxes, but they are made to open even faster than a digital combination lock.

That is only if your primary concern is access during emergencies.

I was watching some gun safe reviews on YouTube a couple of years ago, and one of the reviewers had an interesting idea, kind of a hybrid approach. Guns in a safe in his room, and the last thing he does before going to bed every night is open the safe, then closes it first thing in the morning when he gets up. Seems like the best of both worlds to me, protection for your firearms during the day when you're likely to not be there, but quick access at night when it's most likely needed. You could even take it one step less and not completely open the safe at night, but dial in all but the last number of the combination, or dial in the whole combination but not retract the bolt, so it still looks secure but is quicker for you to access if needed.

Of course, all that assumes that you're a light enough sleeper that if a situation does arise where you need a firearm, you'll wake up fast enough to get to them before the bad guy does. I believe one of the rules of a gunfight is, "Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty."

[Jacob Morgan]

You could put your "house gun" in this: https://www.deansafe.com/v-line-2912-s-fblk-tactical-top-draw-hand-gun-safe.html, then everything else into a proper gun safe. At that point it would not matter how quickly the proper gun safe could be opened.

I have had this unit, or something very close to it, for probably ten years now and no problems. It can be mounted on something solid so no one carries it off and the combination can be put in by feel, in the dark. No batteries to run down or electronics to mysteriously die. Marc Tobias did not include it in his video that showed how many of the small gun safes could be bypassed. Not as secure as a proper gun safe, but for one gun it is a good balance of security and accessibility.

[billdeserthills]

I was going to ask this in a seperate thread but it's close to this topic. Is there a gun safe out there that requires dual combinations? I have a situation where I need to control access by having 2 people to open the safe but it can not be keyed access. Biometrics would be the best option here but even just dual dials which both have to be set to open the safe would work. Been searching online to no avail. Under $3000 preferably.

Why not just install a second lock on your safe?